Using X10 Motion sensors? From the wiki

[IndyMike]

Rich,

 

From the screenshot that you provided earlier, Homeseer is monitoring both X10 RF and Insteon communications. Don't you already have a Powerlinc connected to the PC? If so, can't Homeseer be configured to relay the X10 RF communications through the Powerlinc?

 

This wouldn't give you the stand alone configuration you desire, but it would allow you to play with the ISY X10 interface.

 

IM

[RichTJ99]

Right now, my setup is that the W800 hears the X10 wireless security / motion sensors, then sends that data via serial cable to the PC where the ACRF2 plugin is waiting to get that data & translate it to homeseer.

 

The X10 data never gets onto the powerline itself (I think). My PLM is connected to the ISY & homeseer gets its data from the ISY Plugin that Bob is working on.

 

http://www.wgldesigns.com/w800_vs_v572.html

 

The W800 seems to be specifically designed to be plugged into a PC. Though Michel said they are working on something to get the W800 into the ISY (if I read that right).

 

I already bought a 3 Insteon motion & 3 Insteon door sensors, so I guess I could put those into the ISY as "Critical" sensors. They would work if Homeseer is on or off. THey are just a bit more expensive.

[chuckl]

Right now, my setup is that the W800 hears the X10 wireless security / motion sensors, then sends that data via serial cable to the PC where the ACRF2 plugin is waiting to get that data & translate it to homeseer.

 

The X10 data never gets onto the powerline itself (I think). My PLM is connected to the ISY & homeseer gets its data from the ISY Plugin that Bob is working on.

 

http://www.wgldesigns.com/w800_vs_v572.html

 

The W800 seems to be specifically designed to be plugged into a PC. Though Michel said they are working on something to get the W800 into the ISY (if I read that right).

 

I already bought a 3 Insteon motion & 3 Insteon door sensors, so I guess I could put those into the ISY as "Critical" sensors. They would work if Homeseer is on or off. They are just a bit more expensive.

 

The data CAN get to the power line if you configure Homeseer and the AC-RF2 Processor plug-in to retransmit it back through the power line interface connected to the PC. Open the plug-in and navigate to the Housecodes tab. Click the X10 Powerline Option to retransmit for each of the housecodes you need. Your ISY will then see the traffic. Sure it's not a direct connection to the ISY but you have the capability through Homeseer and the AC-RF2 plug-in for right now until a serial direct connection to the ISY is devised.

 

The important item to remember is that you need a separate powerline interface for the ISY and one for the PC running Homeseer. Since Homeseer doesn't monitor Insteon any longer in my setup, I moved my PLM from the PC over to the ISY and now use a 1132CU X10 interface for the PC for retransmitting X10 signals through the powerline. Remember to reconfigure your powerline interface configuration though the Homeseer/Interfaces tab to delete the PLM and to add an X10 specific interface (even another PLM, PLC, CM11A, etc. will do but you need TWO separate interfaces).

[RichTJ99]

Chuck,

 

That is an EXCELLENT idea! I have a spare PLC from when I went to the ISY/PLM combo. I will take a look at that to see how it would all work together in the ISY.

 

Its not a stand alone solution but as you said its a good way to test.

 

Thanks,

Rich

[chuckl]

Rich,

When you set it up the PC/PLC combo, be sure to:

- go to the HomeSeer/Setup/Interfaces tab and be sure the older "Insteon" (NOT "ISY INSTEON") plug-in is disabled (if you ever loaded and used it in the past).

- go to the HomeSeer/Setup/Interfaces tab and config the PLC for X10 communications and disable it for Irfrared and Other (Insteon)

- go to the HomeSeer/Plug-ins/AC-RF2 Processor/Housecodes tab and check "retransmit" column boxes under X10 Powerline Options of the House Codes you want on the powerline. This should work.

Chuck

[RichTJ99]

Chuck,

 

Is there a way to send the security housecodes onto the powerline?

 

The X10 housecodes seem to be working. I just made simple program that says if G11 is heard, send an email (just for testing).

 

So, how can I tell if the X10 portion is going to cause an issue for me? Meaning, I hear that Insteon & X10 dont mix well on the powerline. My PLM/ISY are plugged into the same port as the PLC in the wall.

 

Thanks,

Rich

[chuckl]

Is there a way to send the security housecodes onto the powerline?

YES! X10 Security codes are in the 433MHz range. If you have a W800, you know they come in 2 flavors: the 310MHz for USA, and the 433MHz for Europe. You need to get a second W800 @ the 433MHz frequency. I've got two and the ACRF2 plug-in can handle up to 4 receivers. Now I can get any X10 signal including the older Stanley Lightmaker Wireless garage door sensors which are on the security frequency.

 

The X10 housecodes seem to be working. I just made simple program that says if G11 is heard, send an email (just for testing).

Great news! When reading your past posts, I didn't see any mention of the 2nd powerline device connected to the PC just for X10.

 

So, how can I tell if the X10 portion is going to cause an issue for me? Meaning, I hear that Insteon & X10 dont mix well on the powerline. My PLM/ISY are plugged into the same port as the PLC in the wall.

I've been running X10 & Insteon for years (literally). I did follow the advice early on that the PLC and PLM have poor X10 capabilities and remained on my old 1132CU for transmitting X10 signals. Yes, I did have the PLC (& later the PLM) and the 1132CU connected to the same HomeSeer PC with no adverse effects. I switched to Insteon long ago because I had too many X10 devices and they were making my RCS TX-15B X10 thermostat unreliable and other devices were intermittent. It's been good so far.

 

The ISY does make Insteon network management easier!

 

Chuck

[IndyMike]

Hello Chuck,

 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe the X10 Security devices transmit at 433MHz. As you noted the carrier frequency for the USA is 310MHz. This includes the security devices. Both the WGL W800RF32 and the X10 CM15a (which can receive Security transmissions) operate at 310MHz.

 

 

The issue here is that the X10 security devices use X10 extended code protocol and there are not a lot of receivers that understand it. Furthermore, the Smarthome powerline interfaces cannot decode or transmit X10 extended code protocols. Smarthome uses an older form of the X10 standard that does not include extended codes.

 

If you want to "inform" the ISY of incoming security traffic from the W800, the straight forward method would be to mimic the V572RF32 - Use Homeseer to map the security data to a standard X10 address and transmit a standard X10 on/off to the ISY via the powerline.

 

Is there a way to send the security housecodes onto the powerline?

YES! X10 Security codes are in the 433MHz range. If you have a W800, you know they come in 2 flavors: the 310MHz for USA, and the 433MHz for Europe. You need to get a second W800 @ the 433MHz frequency. I've got two and the ACRF2 plug-in can handle up to 4 receivers. Now I can get any X10 signal including the older Stanley Lightmaker Wireless garage door sensors which are on the security frequency.

[RichTJ99]

IM, I am not sure how I would get homeseer to mimic it. The only way I could think of it would be to setup a program in homeseer that when when Security Device XYZ is "on" then send an X10 "F1". I am not sure if homeseer would then transmit that to the powerline or if it would just show up in the HS2 log.

 

Your saying that the V572RF32 does all this natively though? I still think I want to wait a little longer to see what UDI comes up with in the next month or two.

 

If you want to "inform" the ISY of incoming security traffic from the W800, the straight forward method would be to mimic the V572RF32 - Use Homeseer to map the security data to a standard X10 address and transmit a standard X10 on/off to the ISY via the powerline.

[RichTJ99]

Chuck,

 

How are you getting your DS10A traffic onto hte powerline?

 

I have my old Insteon PLC which I am now using (thanks to your directions) to rebroadcast the Wireless X10 onto the powerline through homeseer. I am just working on getting the DS10A's onto the powerline now.

 

The possible issue with X10 & Insteon mixing does bother me.

 

Until now, I had 0 X10 powerline traffic, it was all insteon, or the X10 went through the PC (bypassing the powerline). I feel like I am moving a bit backwards trying to get the X10 traffic sent on the powerline to the ISY when its all wireless now.

 

 

Thanks,

Rich

[chuckl]

Apologies IndyMike if I was in error in my last response to Rich. I've got a big mix of X10 items from both Europe and the US. I checked and my security modules aren't DS10's but instead DS90's purchased from Marmitek in Belgium. I also have some MS90 motion sensors and GB90 glass break sensors. The devices look very similar to the US counterparts. I did purchase the second W800 433Mhz RF sensor to get these devices working with HomeSeer. I use the AC-RF2 plug-in to map (and shadow) these devices to standard X10 addresses. The AC-RF2 plug-in handles the extended bytes in the response payload of the security devices. Once you train the plug-in to recognize them, you use the created HomeSeer devices in HomeSeer events.

 

So to answer your question Rich, I'm getting the X10 addresses on the powerline as IndyMike has outlined. I agree it's a step backwards but if you want to put X10 on the powerline, that's the way it will have to be for now.

 

Another option is devising some HomeSeer event structures and keeping it all wireless on the HomeSeer side. Have HS events fire when wireless actions are detected via the AC-RF2 plug-in and set HS devices which are really ISY "variables" since these can be made known to HomeSeer via Bob's ISY plug-in. No X10 gets or needs to be transmitted on the powerline but you're setting up a lot of events to handle the wireless traffic.

 

Chuck

[IndyMike]

Rich,

 

I'm way out of date on Homeseer. I demoed it years ago before the ISY was available. From what I remember, you can set up an event that triggers off the RF receive and transmits a standard X10 command via the powerline.

 

IM, I am not sure how I would get homeseer to mimic it. The only way I could think of it would be to setup a program in homeseer that when when Security Device XYZ is "on" then send an X10 "F1". I am not sure if homeseer would then transmit that to the powerline or if it would just show up in the HS2 log.

 

There's a nice Hometoys article on how the V572RF32 performs it's mapping -

Article Link: V572RF32

I haven't had problems with my X10 coexisting with Insteon but I've taken precautions not to allow motion sensors to access the powerline (i.e. I don't use a RR501 or similar transceiver anymore). Unfortunately the X10 motion sensors will transmit every time they sense motion. In a high activity area this can add up to a lot of powerline activity.

 

From the standpoint of powerline activity, interfacing the W800 directly to the ISY would be far superior. My comments regarding your using Homeseer were intended to give you an idea of how the system would work before spending your hard earned cash.

 

Your saying that the V572RF32 does all this natively though? I still think I want to wait a little longer to see what UDI comes up with in the next month or two.

[RichTJ99]

I haven't had problems with my X10 coexisting with Insteon but I've taken precautions not to allow motion sensors to access the powerline (i.e. I don't use a RR501 or similar transceiver anymore). Unfortunately the X10 motion sensors will transmit every time they sense motion. In a high activity area this can add up to a lot of powerline activity.

 

This is also my big concern. I have 10 x10 motion sensors & 10 DS10a's setup. I would think that would add up to tons of X10 traffic from the motion sensors.

 

10 x insteon motion sensors = $350

10 x insteon door sensors = $350

Total = $700 to get the ISY completely independent. I dont mind spending the money but I wonder if its worth it.

 

From the standpoint of powerline activity, interfacing the W800 directly to the ISY would be far superior.

 

I agree, the ISY talking directly to the w800 would be a better solution.

 

Thanks,

Rich

[IndyMike]

Chuck,

 

No worries! You're simply trying to help a fellow ISY user which is commendable. You're experience with Homeseer makes you far better suited than I.

 

IM

[IndyMike]

Rich,

 

Your DS10a's shouldn't be a problem (not that much activity). Whether your MS will present a problem depends on their activity level. I had four sensors in my Kitchen/dinette and they would overwhelm the powerline at times.

 

This is also my big concern. I have 10 x10 motion sensors & 10 DS10a's setup. I would think that would add up to tons of X10 traffic from the motion sensors.

 

10 x insteon motion sensors = $350

10 x insteon door sensors = $350

Total = $700 to get the ISY completely independent. I dont mind spending the money but I wonder if its worth it.

 

On a different tack, I just downloaded Bob's latest Beta of the Homeseer ISY plug-in. According to the documentation, you should have two way communication with the ISY. Would it be possible to trigger off the security sensor and launch a Insteon command via the plug-in?

[chuckl]

On a different tack, I just downloaded Bob's latest Beta of the Homeseer ISY plug-in. According to the documentation, you should have two way communication with the ISY. Would it be possible to trigger off the security sensor and launch a Insteon command via the plug-in?

 

Exactly! It is two-way. That's the scenario I was trying to convey in my post above. Use HomeSeer event structures and keep it all wireless to the HomeSeer side. Then, have HS events fire when X10 wireless actions are detected via the AC-RF2 plug-in setting HS devices (which are really ISY "variables") since these can be made known to HomeSeer via Bob's ISY plug-in. The advantage to this method is no X10 gets or needs to be transmitted on the powerline. The disadvantage is setting up a lot of events to handle the X10 wireless traffic diverted from the powerline.

[IndyMike]

Chuck,

 

Thanks for being patient with me. I see now that you were saying exactly that. I get a mental block when I see the reference to the "AC-RF2". I keep thinking powerline interface rather than software plug-in.

 

I'd love to say that I'm normally not this thick, but then my Family would begin lining up to disagree...

 

Another option is devising some HomeSeer event structures and keeping it all wireless on the HomeSeer side. Have HS events fire when wireless actions are detected via the AC-RF2 plug-in and set HS devices which are really ISY "variables" since these can be made known to HomeSeer via Bob's ISY plug-in. No X10 gets or needs to be transmitted on the powerline but you're setting up a lot of events to handle the wireless traffic.

 

Chuck

[picc02766]

On a different tack, I just downloaded Bob's latest Beta of the Homeseer ISY plug-in. According to the documentation, you should have two way communication with the ISY. Would it be possible to trigger off the security sensor and launch a Insteon command via the plug-in?

 

Exactly! It is two-way. That's the scenario I was trying to convey in my post above. Use HomeSeer event structures and keep it all wireless to the HomeSeer side. Then, have HS events fire when X10 wireless actions are detected via the AC-RF2 plug-in setting HS devices (which are really ISY "variables") since these can be made known to HomeSeer via Bob's ISY plug-in. The advantage to this method is no X10 gets or needs to be transmitted on the powerline. The disadvantage is setting up a lot of events to handle the X10 wireless traffic diverted from the powerline.

 

This was my goal as well - with ACRF2 I eliminated all of the X10 RF traffic from the powerline. For me this made a huge improvement in response delay controlling Insteon modules - I went from annoyingly perceptible with X-10 retransmit (via TM-751's) to essentially instant via ACRF2 when pressing an X-10 RF remote button. Not to mention much better coverage and reliability with the W800. Also, we like the small X-10 keychain remotes much better than the clunky RemoteLinc, and with this setup they perform equally well, if not better.

 

Reluctant to go back to inserting any X-10 on the powerline to trigger ISY scenes/programs, but do want to get off Homeseer eventually. I'm still not clear if the EZX10RF will allow me to eliminate X-10 on the powerline to trigger the ISY from an X10 RF device, but if there is going to be a direct W800 type of interface it sounds like that would be the way to go anyway.

 

BTW, for ACRF2/ISY plugin combos in Homeseer, it is possible to trigger an ISY program (and therefore a Scene) without any events in Homeseer, just using the ACRF2 module.

 

I created a program in ISY and "called" it directly from ACRF2 with a Shadowing entry, like so:

 

ACRF2 Shadow Entry in Homeseer:

Source      Destination 1                    Destination 2   
A9  	     Flag - Kitchen HS Motion A9  	 None 

 

ISY Program "Flag:Kitchen HS Motion A9" (Not Enabled)

If
  - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')[list=]

Then
       Run Program 'Kitchen:Motion Sense' (If)
       Wait  1 second
       Run Program 'Kitchen:Motion Timer' (If)
       Run Program 'Flag:Kitchen HS Motion A9' (Else Path)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

First of 4 Programs that are the logic for the kitchen motion lighting. All 4 programs are set to be NOT enabled. This one senses X-10 RF via ACRF2 using Shadowing which eliminates any X-10 on powerline. The wait command is primarily there so the program trigger can be seen in the ISY Program Summary.

Next, this program calls "Kitchen:Motion Sense" which checks to see if the motion sensor has been disabled (via another program "Kitchen:Motion Disable") and if the lights aren't already on then turns them on.

Next, this program calls "Kitchen:Motion Timer" which has a test for evening or daytime, then counts down and runs the appropriate scene based on the time of day. I found that the programs must remain separated like this in order for subsequent triggers of the motion sensor to reset the countdown timer.

 

With the Shadowing entry configured as shown, an A9 ON transmission will call the THEN entry point and A9 OFF will call the ELSE entry point in the program shown above.

 

This code example is for a motion sensor and I don't care about the OFF transmission from it, so the "Run Program 'Flag:Kitchen HS Motion A9' (Else Path)" statement preemptively clears the status of "Flag:Kitchen HS Motion A9" program back to FALSE.

 

This approach saves the step of having redundant events to manage in Homeseer and may be slightly more efficient.

 

Regards,

Rob