kclenden Posted March 8, 2020 Posted March 8, 2020 13 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: So I take it the PLM is not a "dumb modem" but maintains its own database of links, etc., that could become corrupted (perhaps by the ISY going offline while communicating with the PLM)? When does the ISY build the file it uses to restore the PLM? I would call the PLM a smart dumb modem. It's dumb in the sense that it doesn't do anything on its own. It's smart in that it knows the low level Insteon rules, just like every other Insteon device. By that I mean it sits around listening to its serial port, the powerline, and RF. If it hears something on its serial port, it passes it on to the powerline and then lets the ISY know it sent the message. If it hears anything on the powerline or via RF, it checks to see if it knows the device that sent the message by checking its own Link Table. If it does know the device then it passes the message onto the ISY. I don't actually know when the ISY builds the tables that it uses to restore the PLM and devices. My assumption is that it updates its copies: Whenever you link or delete a device Whenever you change the On Level or Ramp Rate for a scene (either from the AC or via a program using an adjust scene command) Whenever you execute a restore ISY command Pretty much any time you see a pop-up that says "System Busy. Please do not power off/unplug the system...", I think its updating either PLM or device memory and potentially its own copies of Link Tables. 14 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: Did I just "restore the PLM" (both old and new) with corrupted information garnered after the fact? Perhaps (see my later comments). However, whenever you backup your ISY, it also backs up its copies of the PLM and device Link Tables. So if you have a backup, you're covered in case of corruption. 14 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: 3) just "re-learning" the links resolved the problem, at least temporarily; I'm not sure it really did resolve everything. Following is my analysis of the device and PLM link tables you provided. First the device link tables. They were both identical which isn't surprising since they're the same kind of device and both appear in the same scenes. Here's the device Links Table: Memory Address Record Control Group ID Data What the Data Field Means: 0FF8 A2 00 00.00.00 FF 1F 01 This appears to be a corrupt record. It's active but responds to 00.00.00. 0FF0 E2 01 00.00.00 01 00 01 This appears to be a corrupt record. It's active but controls 00.00.00 0FE8 A2 11 00.00.00 FF 1F 01 This appears to be a corrupt record. It's active but responds to 00.00.00 0FE0 A2 06 44.8C.E7 FF 1F 01 Responds to Mini Remote Keypad.Button 6 with On Level=255, Ramp Rate=.1 sec, Unit=1 0FD8 A2 01 31.83.84 FF 1F 01 Responds to Motion Sensor.Motion Node with On Level=255, Ramp Rate=.1 sec, Unit=1 0FD0 A2 00 49.95.D5 00 00 00 Responds to PLM with On Level=0, Ramp Rate=9 min, Unit=0 0FC8 00 00 00.00.00 00 00 00 Normal Last Line of Link Table The first three lines appear corrupt to me. The A2 and E2 Record Control means they are active records, yet the device is 00.00.00. I don't think 00.00.00 is a valid device ID. Certainly I've never seen it before. If the records had been deleted (i.e. non-active), the A2 would have changed to a 22 and the E2 would have changed to a 62. The fourth line looks like a normal record for including the switches in a scene with the Mini Remote. The fifth line looks like a normal record for including the switches in a scene with the Motion Sensor On the sixth line, I would have expected the data to be FF 1F 01 (the default when you link a device to the ISY/PLM) instead of 00 00 00. So I suspect this line is corrupt. There are two lines missing that I think should be there. One to indicate that the ToggleLinc is a controller for the ISY/PLM. This is a default line that is created whenever you link the ISY to a device. There is a corresponding responder link in the PLM Links Table so this line is definitely missing. It would look like: xxxx E2 01 49.95.D5 FF 1F 01 Without it I'm curious whether the device status in the Admin Console get updated if you manually toggle the switch. The second line that I expected to see would indicate that the ISY/PLM controls this device via the "Front Lights" scene. Unlike the missing line above, there is not a corresponding controller record in the PLM Links Table, but that too I think is an error. It would look something like: xxxx A2 11 49.95.D5 FF 1F 01 Without it I'm curious whether you can turn ON and OFF the "Front Lights" scene from the Admin Console. Your testing showed that you can control the switches individually, but can you control via the scene? I definitely think the Links Tables for both 3E.33.FE and 33 1C 87 are corrupt. What happens if you "Show the Device Links" for these devices and then click "Compare" after they're done populating? Now the PLM Links table. I see issues with it as well. Here is the PLM Links Table. I've sorted it by Device ID to make it easy to see all the links for a particular device. The one you see when you view the PLM Links Table in the Admin Console is sorted by Memory Address, so if you want to find the records I refer to here, just look them up by Memory Address: What the Data Field Means Memory Record Control Group ID Data Record Control ID Device Category Device Sub Category Device Version Device From Topology Report Device from Category/SubCategory Lookup 004B E2 00 27.27.5C 01 0E 41 Controls 27.27.5C.0 01 0E 41 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.41 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 004C A2 01 27.27.5C 01 0E 41 Responds To 27.27.5C.1 01 0E 41 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.41 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0057 E2 18 27.27.5C 01 0E 41 Controls 27.27.5C.24 01 0E 41 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.41 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0005 E2 00 27.28.BE 01 0E 41 Controls 27.28.BE.0 01 0E 41 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.41 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0008 A2 01 27.28.BE 01 0E 41 Responds To 27.28.BE.1 01 0E 41 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.41 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0035 A2 01 28.50.06 10 08 41 Responds To 28.50.06.1 10 08 41 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.41 Water Leak Sensor 0036 A2 02 28.50.06 10 08 41 Responds To 28.50.06.2 10 08 41 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.41 Water Leak Sensor 0037 A2 04 28.50.06 10 08 41 Responds To 28.50.06.4 10 08 41 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.41 Water Leak Sensor 002A A2 01 28.64.1A 10 01 41 Responds To 28.64.1A.1 10 01 41 #N/A Motion Sensor 002B A2 02 28.64.1A 10 01 41 Responds To 28.64.1A.2 10 01 41 #N/A Motion Sensor 002C A2 03 28.64.1A 10 01 41 Responds To 28.64.1A.3 10 01 41 #N/A Motion Sensor 0026 E2 00 2C.0F.B2 05 0B 0D Controls 2C.0F.B2.0 05 0B 0D (2441TH) INSTEON Thermostat v.0D Insteon Thermostat 0028 A2 01 2C.0F.B2 05 0B 0D Responds To 2C.0F.B2.1 05 0B 0D (2441TH) INSTEON Thermostat v.0D Insteon Thermostat 0029 A2 02 2C.0F.B2 05 0B 0D Responds To 2C.0F.B2.2 05 0B 0D (2441TH) INSTEON Thermostat v.0D Insteon Thermostat 0027 A2 EF 2C.0F.B2 05 0B 0D Responds To 2C.0F.B2.239 05 0B 0D (2441TH) INSTEON Thermostat v.0D Insteon Thermostat 0023 A2 01 2C.72.3A 10 11 43 Responds To 2C.72.3A.1 10 11 43 (2845-222) INSTEON Hidden Door Sensor v.43 Hidden Door Sensor 0024 A2 03 2C.72.3A 10 11 43 Responds To 2C.72.3A.3 10 11 43 (2845-222) INSTEON Hidden Door Sensor v.43 Hidden Door Sensor 0025 A2 04 2C.72.3A 10 11 43 Responds To 2C.72.3A.4 10 11 43 (2845-222) INSTEON Hidden Door Sensor v.43 Hidden Door Sensor 0048 A2 01 2D.27.B9 10 02 40 Responds To 2D.27.B9.1 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0049 A2 02 2D.27.B9 10 02 40 Responds To 2D.27.B9.2 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 004A A2 04 2D.27.B9 10 02 40 Responds To 2D.27.B9.4 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0045 A2 01 2E.23.06 10 02 40 Responds To 2E.23.06.1 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0046 A2 02 2E.23.06 10 02 40 Responds To 2E.23.06.2 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0047 A2 04 2E.23.06 10 02 40 Responds To 2E.23.06.4 10 02 40 (2421) TriggerLinc v.40 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0034 E2 00 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Controls 2E.E3.A5.0 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 003B A2 01 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.1 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 003C A2 02 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.2 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 003D A2 03 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.3 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 003E A2 04 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.4 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 003F A2 05 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.5 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 0040 A2 06 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.6 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 0041 A2 07 2E.E3.A5 10 0A 43 Responds To 2E.E3.A5.7 10 0A 43 INSTEON Smoke Sensor v.43 Insteon Smoke Bridge 000C E2 00 2F.78.78 07 00 41 Controls 2F.78.78.0 07 00 41 (2450) IOLinc v.41 IOLinc 000F A2 01 2F.78.78 07 00 41 Responds To 2F.78.78.1 07 00 41 (2450) IOLinc v.41 IOLinc 0018 E2 12 2F.78.78 07 00 41 Controls 2F.78.78.18 07 00 41 (2450) IOLinc v.41 IOLinc 001F A2 01 31.83.84 10 01 41 Responds To 31.83.84.1 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 0020 A2 02 31.83.84 10 01 41 Responds To 31.83.84.2 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 0021 A2 03 31.83.84 10 01 41 Responds To 31.83.84.3 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 004D A2 01 31.8A.20 10 01 41 Responds To 31.8A.20.1 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 004E A2 02 31.8A.20 10 01 41 Responds To 31.8A.20.2 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 004F A2 03 31.8A.20 10 01 41 Responds To 31.8A.20.3 10 01 41 (2842-222) INSTEON Motion Sensor v.41 Motion Sensor 0042 A2 01 32.51.5F 10 02 43 Responds To 32.51.5F.1 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0043 A2 02 32.51.5F 10 02 43 Responds To 32.51.5F.2 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0044 A2 04 32.51.5F 10 02 43 Responds To 32.51.5F.4 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0000 E2 00 33.1A.D4 02 1A 41 Controls 33.1A.D4.0 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 000E A2 01 33.1A.D4 02 1A 41 Responds To 33.1A.D4.1 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0002 E2 00 33.1C.87 02 1A 41 Controls 33.1C.87.0 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 000A A2 01 33.1C.87 02 1A 41 Responds To 33.1C.87.1 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0001 E2 00 34.87.7A 02 1A 41 Controls 34.87.7A.0 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0009 A2 01 34.87.7A 02 1A 41 Responds To 34.87.7A.1 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0022 E2 17 34.87.7A 02 1A 41 Controls 34.87.7A.23 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0003 E2 00 35.BC.AA 01 0E 43 Controls 35.BC.AA.0 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0006 A2 01 35.BC.AA 01 0E 43 Responds To 35.BC.AA.1 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0019 E2 14 35.BC.AA 01 0E 43 Controls 35.BC.AA.20 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0050 E2 00 35.D6.F1 01 0E 43 Controls 35.D6.F1.0 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0051 A2 01 35.D6.F1 01 0E 43 Responds To 35.D6.F1.1 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0052 E2 15 35.D6.F1 01 0E 43 Controls 35.D6.F1.21 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0004 E2 00 35.F4.7A 01 0E 43 Controls 35.F4.7A.0 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0007 A2 01 35.F4.7A 01 0E 43 Responds To 35.F4.7A.1 01 0E 43 (B2457D2) LampLinc BiPhy v.43 LampLinc (Dual Band), 2-pin 0038 A2 01 36.BB.8F 10 08 43 Responds To 36.BB.8F.1 10 08 43 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.43 Water Leak Sensor 0039 A2 02 36.BB.8F 10 08 43 Responds To 36.BB.8F.2 10 08 43 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.43 Water Leak Sensor 003A A2 04 36.BB.8F 10 08 43 Responds To 36.BB.8F.4 10 08 43 (2852-222) Leak Sensor v.43 Water Leak Sensor 000B E2 00 3E.33.FE 02 1A 41 Controls 3E.33.FE.0 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 000D A2 01 3E.33.FE 02 1A 41 Responds To 3E.33.FE.1 02 1A 41 (2466S) ToggleLinc Relay v.41 ToggleLinc Relay 0010 A2 01 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.1 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0011 A2 02 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.2 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0012 A2 03 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.3 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0013 A2 04 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.4 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0014 A2 05 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.5 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0015 A2 06 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.6 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0016 A2 07 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.7 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0017 A2 08 44.8C.E7 00 1A 39 Responds To 44.8C.E7.8 00 1A 39 (2342-222) Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene v.39 Mini Remote Keypad, 8 Scene 0058 E2 00 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Controls 4A.49.AB.0 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 0059 A2 01 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.AB.1 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 005C A2 0D 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.AB.13 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 005D A2 10 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.AB.16 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 005A A2 EE 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.AB.238 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 005B A2 EF 4A.49.AB 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.AB.239 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 002D E2 00 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Controls 4A.49.CD.0 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 002E A2 01 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.CD.1 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 0031 A2 0D 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.CD.13 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 0032 A2 10 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.CD.16 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 002F A2 EE 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.CD.238 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 0030 A2 EF 4A.49.CD 10 16 46 Responds To 4A.49.CD.239 10 16 46 (2844-222) Insteon Motion Sensor II v.46 Insteon Motion Sensor II 001B E2 00 4C.6E.7A 02 39 44 Controls 4C.6E.7A.0 02 39 44 (2663-222) On/Off Outlet v.44 On/Off Outlet, dual control 001C A2 01 4C.6E.7A 02 39 44 Responds To 4C.6E.7A.1 02 39 44 (2663-222) On/Off Outlet v.44 On/Off Outlet, dual control 001D A2 02 4C.6E.7A 02 39 44 Responds To 4C.6E.7A.2 02 39 44 (2663-222) On/Off Outlet v.44 On/Off Outlet, dual control 001E E2 16 4C.6E.7A 02 39 44 Controls 4C.6E.7A.22 02 39 44 (2663-222) On/Off Outlet v.44 On/Off Outlet, dual control 0054 A2 01 4E.3A.6E 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3A.6E.1 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0055 A2 02 4E.3A.6E 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3A.6E.2 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0056 A2 04 4E.3A.6E 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3A.6E.4 10 02 43 (2421) TriggerLinc v.43 INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 001A A2 01 4E.3F.BD 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3F.BD.1 10 02 43 #N/A INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0033 A2 02 4E.3F.BD 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3F.BD.2 10 02 43 #N/A INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor 0053 A2 04 4E.3F.BD 10 02 43 Responds To 4E.3F.BD.4 10 02 43 #N/A INSTEON Wireless Open/Close Sensor The first issue is the lines shown in red. They are for devices that that don't appear in your Topology Report. I don't know if they're actually corruption, or not, but if the devices don't exist, I would either expect the lines not to exist in the PLM Links Table, or, as above, appear with 22 (for A2) and 62 (for E2) to indicate they aren't active records. The second issue is related to the lines in blue. While those line are valid links, and are the expected default links that would occur when you link a device to the PLM, as noted above the "controls" line for each device does not have a correspond "responds" line in the actual device Links Tables. Next, both of those devices appear in "Front Lights" scene known to the ISY. As such they should have a line that indicates the ISY/PLM is a controller of those devices in that scene. The lines would look something like: xxxx E2 11 33.1C.87 02 1A 41 xxxx E2 11 3E.33.FE 02 1A 41 Based on everything above, I certainly suspect that you PLM and Device Links Tables are not yet back to normal. Let me know whether the Admin Console status gets updated when you physically activate the two ToggleLincs, as well as if you can actually control them via the "Front Lights" scene in the Admin Console.
Thomas Roach Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 Thanks, @kclenden This is exactly why having the voice of experience and familiarity with the system is very helpful: because apparently my system is NOT running "by the book" and I would have spent many hours chasing my tail. So some additional information: Most of my system has been through major revisions. I started with an Insteon Hub (still in the junk piles) and a few motion detectors that tended to die and needed to be "forcibly removed." One of those detectors is 28.64.1A. Switches have gone from the back of the house to the front, were controlled by motion detectors and then weren't, etc. When I replaced the dead Hub with the ISY, I did not reinitialize the whole system but merged it into my existing scheme. Which keeps expanding... 7 hours ago, kclenden said: The fifth line looks like a normal record for including the switches in a scene with the Motion Sensor On the sixth line, I would have expected the data to be FF 1F 01 (the default when you link a device to the ISY/PLM) instead of 00 00 00. So I suspect this line is corrupt. There are two lines missing that I think should be there. One to indicate that the ToggleLinc is a controller for the ISY/PLM. This is a default line that is created whenever you link the ISY to a device. There is a corresponding responder link in the PLM Links Table so this line is definitely missing. It would look like: xxxx E2 01 49.95.D5 FF 1F 01 Without it I'm curious whether the device status in the Admin Console get updated if you manually toggle the switch. The second line that I expected to see would indicate that the ISY/PLM controls this device via the "Front Lights" scene. Unlike the missing line above, there is not a corresponding controller record in the PLM Links Table, but that too I think is an error. It would look something like: xxxx A2 11 49.95.D5 FF 1F 01 Without it I'm curious whether you can turn ON and OFF the "Front Lights" scene from the Admin Console. Your testing showed that you can control the switches individually, but can you control via the scene? The device status is updated in the Admin Console. While I can turn on and off the lights via a Scene Test, my system is a bit more complex. In fact, I'm surprised to see that the switches are responders to the motion sensor directly. I have programs that set variables that condition programs that control if the switches respond to the motion sensor (99% of the time), ignore the motion sensor and stay on (handy when expecting visitors), or ignore the motion sensor and stay off (for watching the stars or fireworks). Apparently these programs modify the device tables rather than the scene. But in that case, why did the switches stop responding to the motion detector as well as the ISY? 7 hours ago, kclenden said: I'm not sure it really did resolve everything. I didn't ask or expect it to resolve "everything," especially when I haven't (yet?) wrapped my head around what "everything" entails. However, my "problem" (the devices going "NACK" probably sums it up) was resolved and the devices functioned again (please don't read that statement as meaning "it's fixed," because it just means it quit acting up). One of my careers was that of a technician, so I've worked on enough problems to state that the cause of the failure remains undiagnosed. Even IF the SD card has errors, it won't be proof that it caused the problem. It would raise my confidence level to "reasonably certain," though. ?
Thomas Roach Posted March 8, 2020 Author Posted March 8, 2020 Okay, a status update: The SD card has been replaced. A couple notes on the process: 1) my first backup attempt (figuring the current state was probably good) was interrupted by an error message, so I deleted it and made another; and 2) trying to replace the SD card through the case meant my old fumble fingers dropped the card inside the case. To open the case, the fourth screw is under the label (right under ZW+ on my ISY's label). The board(s) just pop out once the bottom is off. I copied the files on the old SD card and did a quick reformat so H2testw could check for errors by writing to the entire card and verifying the files written. No errors were found. That's still not proof that the SD card is good, but there's no proof that it went bad (it's a SanDisk 4Gb BTW). UNTIL the problem happens again or someone has a brilliant insight into the cause, I do not see any further intervention as profitable. To sum up, here's what I did that worked (so far): I re-added the links to the devices that were unable to be controlled by the ISY, which restored them to operation. I saved the logs to my computer and then cleared the log and error log files. Just in case there was a bad card, I replaced the SD card with a high-endurance 32 Gb card because it's inexpensive. Many thanks to all those who participated and provided insights into the workings of this system!
kclenden Posted March 9, 2020 Posted March 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: UNTIL the problem happens again or someone has a brilliant insight into the cause, I do not see any further intervention as profitable. I tend to agree. I would still be interested in the results of listing the Device Links Table for 33.1C.87 and 3E.33.FE followed by a "Compare". That would compare the actual Device Links Tables to the copy kept by the ISY. I'm curious whether the ISY copy has the 00.00.00 device lines. 10 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: 19 hours ago, kclenden said: Without it I'm curious whether you can turn ON and OFF the "Front Lights" scene from the Admin Console. Your testing showed that you can control the switches individually, but can you control via the scene? The device status is updated in the Admin Console. That's is curious. Maybe the 00.00.00 lines actually serve a purpose? 10 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: In fact, I'm surprised to see that the switches are responders to the motion sensor directly. I have programs that set variables that condition programs that control if the switches respond to the motion sensor (99% of the time), ignore the motion sensor and stay on (handy when expecting visitors), or ignore the motion sensor and stay off (for watching the stars or fireworks). Apparently these programs modify the device tables rather than the scene. Scenes are really just Insteon Groups. Whenever you create a scene in the Admin Console, it updates the PLM and device Links Tables so that they react appropriately to scene commands. And if you use "Adjust Scene" in any of your programs, that results in actual updates to the PLM and device Links Tables. That is the main reason you have to be careful when using "Adjust Scene" with wireless devices. When executing the "Adjust Scene" command, the ISY tries to update the wireless device's Links Table, but since the wireless device is asleep, the ISY/PLM can't communicate with the device.
Thomas Roach Posted March 9, 2020 Author Posted March 9, 2020 @kclenden I feel like this is getting off-topic, but the ISY has all the device table lines except: 0FD0 A2 00 49.95.D5 00 00 00 I've rarely used the scene modification program (and not in months), but never experienced a problem with it. Also, the scene adjustment apparently changes the switches to ignore the sensor.
kclenden Posted March 10, 2020 Posted March 10, 2020 10 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: I feel like this is getting off-topic, but the ISY has all the device table lines except: 0FD0 A2 00 49.95.D5 00 00 00 Thanks. So the ISY copy of the table has the first three lines where the Device ID is 00.00.00, but doesn't have the 49.95.D5 line. I think I understand why it doesn't have the 49.95.D5 line since it told you that you were attempting to add a device that was already linked. If it were me, even though things seem to be working correctly now, I'd delete the 33.1C.87 and 3E.33.FE devices from the ISY, factory reset them, and then relink them to the ISY. Of course you'd have to fix any programs and scenes they had been in. 10 hours ago, Thomas Roach said: Also, the scene adjustment apparently changes the switches to ignore the sensor. Yes, if you use the "Adjust Scene" command and choose "Ignore" the Link Tables in the switches will be updated. In theory, the Link Table in the motion sensor should also be updated, but if the MS is asleep the ISY won't be able to write updates to its Links Table.
Thomas Roach Posted March 15, 2020 Author Posted March 15, 2020 On 3/9/2020 at 11:16 PM, kclenden said: If it were me, even though things seem to be working correctly now, I'd delete the 33.1C.87 and 3E.33.FE devices from the ISY, factory reset them, and then relink them to the ISY. Of course you'd have to fix any programs and scenes they had been in. If I had the time (and enthusiasm) I would factory-reset the entire system and begin anew. But I possess neither. ? The problem has not come back, but I did find some additional information: The CFL bulb powered by the first switch to act up has died. It's possible it was erratically producing noise I power-cycled the ISY since that procedure used to work for the old Insteon Hub when that switch failed to run sunset-to-sunrise The ISY reported problems reading files from the SD card on startup (there are many more fallible components in those cards than just the memory bits), according to the log files At this point, I am 95% certain the problem has been resolved by replacing the SD card (and CFL bulb) after re-adding the links.
larryllix Posted March 15, 2020 Posted March 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Thomas Roach said: If I had the time (and enthusiasm) I would factory-reset the entire system and begin anew. But I possess neither. ? The problem has not come back, but I did find some additional information: The CFL bulb powered by the first switch to act up has died. It's possible it was erratically producing noise I power-cycled the ISY since that procedure used to work for the old Insteon Hub when that switch failed to run sunset-to-sunrise The ISY reported problems reading files from the SD card on startup (there are many more fallible components in those cards than just the memory bits), according to the log files At this point, I am 95% certain the problem has been resolved by replacing the SD card (and CFL bulb) after re-adding the links. I understand item #3 was before replacing the SD card? #3 would be a very big clue and it sounds like you may have it. Rebuilding your PLM. may clean out your old link carnage, if still needed. I am not sure of the process but I know you can cause ISY to install a fresh image based on programs and internal knowledge..
Goose66 Posted March 27, 2020 Posted March 27, 2020 So it looks like I have another dead (or dying) PLM. I have had to purchase one right at every three years since 2010. Is three years about what everybody else is getting out of a serial PLM? Damn I wish they would have released that PLM Pro! Order Details Ordered on June 29, 2016 (1 item) Insteon 2413S PowerLinc Modem INSTEON Dual-Band Serial Interface, White Insteon Sold by: Element Goods Buy it again Order Details Ordered on December 9, 2013 (1 item) Insteon 2413S PowerLinc Modem INSTEON Dual-Band Serial Interface, White Insteon Sold by: Amazon.com LLC Buy it again Order Details Ordered on January 25, 2010 (2 items) INSTEON PowerLinc Modem, Serial Smarthome Sold by: Smarthome Buy it again
larryllix Posted March 27, 2020 Posted March 27, 2020 Six years now with my original PLM. I bought a spare and tested it for a few months but returned the original back to service. I don't have any grid-powered Insteon modules that went bad except a synchro-link modules. I had a few battery devices go bad but they are not connected to my rural grid power using underground feeds.
Thomas Roach Posted March 27, 2020 Author Posted March 27, 2020 22 minutes ago, Goose66 said: So it looks like I have another dead (or dying) PLM How did you reach this conclusion? I'm not an expert, but my recent experience has shown that many things can cause symptoms often attributed to the PLM.
Goose66 Posted March 27, 2020 Posted March 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Thomas Roach said: How did you reach this conclusion? Experience. Generally things start going south with the ISY in regards to Insteon devices: random devices listed as unreachable when I start the Admin Console. failure of programs to turn on and off devices despite running at the appropriate times and with the appropriate outcome (according to the logs) Insteon scenes and keypads continuing to work correctly even simultaneously with ISY control failures. Random on/off events - likely during program runs where the ISY is commanding one device to turn on but another turns on. Failure of Alexa to complete on/off commands through ISY despite Alexa showing an updated status as intended. If this was a general Insteon failure, I would expect to experience problems with other Insteon devices - mainly links between switches/lights and associated keypads. I am not having any of those problems. The only problems that I am experiencing is anything happening through the ISY. Since the ISY is not reporting any problems in the log and not behaving in a strange way, I am assuming PLM failure (and a new PLM has resolved these issues in the past). I am taking the PLM (and thus the ISY) offline for now to see if random event problems subside, and if so, I will replace the PLM. However, any alternative debug methodologies you may suggest would be welcomed.
Thomas Roach Posted March 27, 2020 Author Posted March 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Goose66 said: Generally things start going south with the ISY in regards to Insteon devices: random devices listed as unreachable when I start the Admin Console. failure of programs to turn on and off devices despite running at the appropriate times and with the appropriate outcome (according to the logs) Insteon scenes and keypads continuing to work correctly even simultaneously with ISY control failures. Random on/off events - likely during program runs where the ISY is commanding one device to turn on but another turns on. Failure of Alexa to complete on/off commands through ISY despite Alexa showing an updated status as intended. That sounds quite like the symptoms I experienced until I replaced the SD card. Especially if your error log shows any failures in opening files, you might want to consider that (considerably cheaper) measure as a "diagnostic step," if nothing else. Since it sounds like the ISY is getting devices crossed (commands and status updates from the wrong devices) from your description, either the ISY or the PLM (or both) could be corrupted. Obviously you could try checking the PLM device table, or you could try my little trick of "re-learning" the link to an unreachable device without any factory reset, etc. Of course, there's also the random intermittent noise issue (like from my failing CFL bulb) to confound the diagnostic process. One thing I learned from years as a technician: throwing parts at a problem is not only expensive, it adds layers to actually finding the cause.
Goose66 Posted March 27, 2020 Posted March 27, 2020 30 minutes ago, Thomas Roach said: you might want to consider that (considerably cheaper) measure as a "diagnostic step," if nothing else. Based on my past attempts at troubleshooting Insteon, and the fact that it always seems to wind up being the PLM, taking a bunch of diagnostic steps never seems cheaper to me than $70 for a new PLM if you consider the time involved as well as the period of time the system is down and the complaints from the wife. I guess anything is worth a try, though.
Thomas Roach Posted March 27, 2020 Author Posted March 27, 2020 22 minutes ago, Goose66 said: taking a bunch of diagnostic steps never seems cheaper to me than $70 for a new PLM If you do what you always did... You could do both, you know. Just order a "Samsung PRO Endurance 32GB... (MB-MJ32GA/AM)" card at the same time. It'll be a few extra hours set-up when it arrives, but Amazon isn't doing speedy delivery anyway with the COVID-19 crisis. I'm not saying it will fix your problem. But if you just want to throw parts at it, throw some extra parts at the same time.
Goose66 Posted March 29, 2020 Posted March 29, 2020 When it comes to parts off Amazon, the more the merrier. ? But what specific symptoms were you seeing that led you to believer your SD Card was bad? In my case, the ISY is logging no errors and the Admin Console is not behaving badly. Programs seem to be controlling all my nodes through nodeservers just fine, and Alexa is working great for those that are hooked up through the ISY to a nodeserver node. The only problems I'm seeing are Insteon network problems, and specifically, Insteon problems originating from the ISY. Regular insteon scene traffic, like n-way switch circuits and keypad key assignments all seem to be working fine. Were these problems similar to yours that the SD card switch solved?
Thomas Roach Posted March 29, 2020 Author Posted March 29, 2020 10 hours ago, Goose66 said: But what specific symptoms were you seeing that led you to believer your SD Card was bad? As you noted before, generally things started going south with the ISY in regards to Insteon devices for some weeks before it "really broke:" devices listed as unreachable when I start the Admin Console. failure of programs to turn on and off devices despite running at the appropriate times Insteon keypads continuing to work correctly even simultaneously with ISY control failures. Random on/off events - Alexa requests to turn on one device using the ISY but another turns on. Failure of Alexa to complete on/off commands through the ISY Plus the fact that I could again command devices from the Admin Console by simply re-linking to them. The "wrong device" issue was a big clue that something was scrambled, and the question became "How?" I did not find any file issues in the error log until I started power-cycling the ISY (repeatedly). A major contribution was my misreading of the Event Viewer: but if indexes get scrambled, it sounds like a memory issue and the SD card serves as an inexpensive external memory. Plus I substituted the PLM in the beginning and nothing changed (I did not go further than just doing a "restore" on the new PLM before reinstalling the old one). One thing that was mentioned several times in the wiki was to pop the existing SD card out and into it's mount in the ISY several times, like there might have been poor contact issues. I'd still rather go with a new card in that instance, especially since these cards have internal addressing and control circuitry that can readily fail and mimic poor contacts.
Goose66 Posted April 2, 2020 Posted April 2, 2020 Made to feel lesser than in my engineering abilities ?, I set out on a course of diagnostics before just replacing my PLM. I located one LED can light that was dim/flickering, indicating a failing driver module (and probably putting out a lot of noise) and I put a FilterLinc on my landscape lighting transformer since I replaced all the bulbs with LEDs and added a bunch of fixtures last month. I also, based on Michel's recommendation, replaced the cable from the ISY to the PLM, and I moved the PLM and the ISY closer to my breaker box(es). These changes made no difference in the Insteon (specifically the ISY Insteon) behavior. Then I attempted to restore the PLM -- literally a dozen times -- deleting the devices that the ISY complained about each time, only to have the ISY complain about a new, random device and fail once again on the next run. This was a dead end. Next, I replaced the original 1GB MicroSD card with a new 16GB MicroSD card, updated the firmware, and restored my backup. I went back and tried to restore the PLM again several times, but got the same result. Finally, I put the new PLM in place and did a Restore PLM. After about 40 minutes of updating and writing data, everything was back to operational, and my programs throughout the day have all seemed to run correctly. So in the end, it was just that the time had come again to replace the PLM. I post this for other's having similar problems with Insteon -- again, very specifically the ISY's control of Insteon -- and looking for answers: if your PLM is 3 years old or more, just replace the PLM first, and don't bother with the rest of it unless replacing the PLM doesn't help. Through all of the diagnosis and frustration I learned one, very important thing: stick with your gut!
Thomas Roach Posted April 2, 2020 Author Posted April 2, 2020 22 minutes ago, Goose66 said: I post this for other's having similar problems with Insteon -- again, very specifically the ISY's control of Insteon -- and looking for answers: if your PLM is 3 years old or more, just replace the PLM first, and don't bother with the rest of it unless replacing the PLM doesn't help. Through all of the diagnosis and frustration I learned one, very important thing: stick with your gut! So what you didn't try (or it didn't work) was simply re-linking to an "unreachable" device without deleting anything? That would be a crucial difference from what I experienced. Since you have not isolated what is causing the PLM to fail (assuming they have all failed in the same way) and without knowing if all the PLMs had the weak capacitors (or even what failed internally in each one), perhaps you may want to check for surge protection (my whole-house device was very inexpensive) or devices that cause voltage spikes to the circuit powering your PLM. If that turns up fruitless, then perhaps order another PLM as a back-up in a year or two if the Pro model is not released. BTW, I started off in engineering before embarking on a career as a technician. It's a different skill-set, so don't feel too bad about your reluctance to do diagnostics--especially in an information-deprived environment. I've had to "stick with my gut" many times, which is why I like my gut as educated as possible.
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