PLM Connectivity/Communication Challenges

[oh2bnMaine]

I'm trying to understand more about how the ISY/PLM communicates with devices on my network. Maybe if I understood it better I would be able to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

My property has a house and pool house. They share the same main breaker. 

The main breaker connects to a breaker box inside the main house. There are three other breaker boxes connected to this breaker box. The house was built 100 years ago and still uses knob and tube in the sections I haven't renovated. 

I have tried the PLM connected to many different locations to see what changes. 
(1) Why does the location matter if 99% of my Insteon devices are dual band and none are too far away from the mesh to be able to get a signal?
(2) When I move the PLM around, different devices become unstable, but devices that are next to them never have issues? (devices are purchased in the last 3 years)

Topology:

Main Breaker Box --> Breaker Box #1 (main house, basement, all insteon devices connected here are on new wiring)

Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #2 (main house; less than 1 meter from #1; new wiring for 1st gate has insteon devices attached)
>>> when the PLM is connected to box #2, a few switches in the pool house stop working
Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #3 (main house; less than 5 meters from #1; new wiring for 2nd gate has insteon devices attached)
>>> when the PLM is connected to box #3, the 1st gate stops working
Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #4 (pool house; only old wire is the one connecting #1 to #4; majority of insteon devices are connected here; contractor used metal boxes instead of plastic)
>>> there's no good spot for the PLM in the pool house

When I'm done renovating the house, there will be significantly more Insteon devices in the house than pool house. But, for now, no Insteon device in the house seems to have connectivity issues regardless where I put the PLM.

Why does the PLM location seem so touchy?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

 

 

[Teken]

I'm trying to understand more about how the ISY/PLM communicates with devices on my network. Maybe if I understood it better I would be able to figure out what I'm doing wrong.
My property has a house and pool house. They share the same main breaker. 
The main breaker connects to a breaker box inside the main house. There are three other breaker boxes connected to this breaker box. The house was built 100 years ago and still uses knob and tube in the sections I haven't renovated. 
I have tried the PLM connected to many different locations to see what changes. 
(1) Why does the location matter if 99% of my Insteon devices are dual band and none are too far away from the mesh to be able to get a signal?
(2) When I move the PLM around, different devices become unstable, but devices that are next to them never have issues? (devices are purchased in the last 3 years)
Topology:
Main Breaker Box --> Breaker Box #1 (main house, basement, all insteon devices connected here are on new wiring)
Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #2 (main house; less than 1 meter from #1; new wiring for 1st gate has insteon devices attached)
>>> when the PLM is connected to box #2, a few switches in the pool house stop working
Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #3 (main house; less than 5 meters from #1; new wiring for 2nd gate has insteon devices attached)
>>> when the PLM is connected to box #3, the 1st gate stops working
Breaker Box #1 --> Breaker Box #4 (pool house; only old wire is the one connecting #1 to #4; majority of insteon devices are connected here; contractor used metal boxes instead of plastic)
>>> there's no good spot for the PLM in the pool house
When I'm done renovating the house, there will be significantly more Insteon devices in the house than pool house. But, for now, no Insteon device in the house seems to have connectivity issues regardless where I put the PLM.
Why does the PLM location seem so touchy?
 
Thanks,
 
Bill
 
 

Hi Bill,

To start you need to insure both electrical legs of split single phase system is properly bridged / coupled.

You can find out how to complete the 4 tap beacon test in any full users manual indicating the same on the Smarthome website.

If both sides of the 120 / 240 VAC system is not bridged the Insteon signal can not be received by another device.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oh2bnMaine]

9 hours ago, Teken said:

You can find out how to complete the 4 tap beacon test in any full users manual indicating the same on the Smarthome website.

I haven't been able to find the steps in a manual for performing this. Would you have a link to a manual that contains these steps? I have checked in a 2476 and a 2413s. Neither show the steps as far as I can see.

Thanks,

Bill

[Teken]

I haven't been able to find the steps in a manual for performing this. Would you have a link to a manual that contains these steps? I have checked in a 2476 and a 2413s. Neither show the steps as far as I can see.
Thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,

The full users manual calls it *Phase Detect Beacon*. Most of us know it as the 4 tap beacon test as you must press the set button (extremely) quickly to initiate the test: https://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2477s.pdf#page13

I’ve appended the manual (page 12) as to how to determine the phase coupling. Please download the specific manual for you hardware as different model years had different blinking (LED) indicators.

Let me know if you have more questions and the results as such.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brian H]

The 2476D and 2476S SwitchLinc is not Dual Band. It has no Insteon RF and is power  line only.

So it will not have any RF communications with other modules only power line communications. Also has no 4 Tap or Beacon tests in it.

I don't remember seeing the test mentioned in the PLM Quick Guide or Developers Notes but the 4 tap test works for me. On a 2413S as it is Dual Band. The  old 2412S is power line only so it also would have no 4 Tap or Beacon test.

Some modules manuals show a Flow Chart of Set Button taps and LED flash patterns to get to the Beacon test. Though some of mine still worked OK with the 4 tap method.

If memory serves me. My early hardware Siren Modules didn't do exactly what was expected with the tests. Though they are Dual band.

[Teken]

The 2476D and 2476S SwitchLinc is not Dual Band. It has no Insteon RF and is power  line only.
So it will not have any RF communications with other modules only power line communications. Also has no 4 Tap or Beacon tests in it.
I don't remember seeing the test mentioned in the PLM Quick Guide or Developers Notes but the 4 tap test works for me. On a 2413S as it is Dual Band. The  old 2412S is power line only so it also would have no 4 Tap or Beacon test.
Some modules manuals show a Flow Chart of Set Button taps and LED flash patterns to get to the Beacon test. Though some of mine still worked OK with the 4 tap method.
If memory serves me. My early hardware Siren Modules didn't do exactly what was expected with the tests. Though they are Dual band.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oh2bnMaine]

2476... sorry, I got that wrong. I have a bunch of 2477's among other things. I have 25 2476's from years ago in my other property, and that number sticks we me more than 2477. Sorry for the confusion. I've included a screenshot of the devices with the hope to clear that up and prove I'm not insane. 

Green = "Device connects the phases to SwitchLinc." ... from the manual. What does that really mean?
Red = "Device does not connect the phases to SwitchLinc. Relocate device if necessary (and where practical)." Is there something I can do with the wiring in my house while I have walls exposed to get this to flash green instead?

I did the beacon test and am even more confused now. Again, I'm hoping to learn something here, so please bear with me. 

I got the test running. That was the easy part.  Below are some observations. I'm not sure what it all means at this point, since all the devices are very stable with the current location of the PLM. Can someone help me interpret?

(1) The PLM is plugged into a "dumb" outlet in the basement. This is connected to breaker box #2. There's a 2477S in the same 2-gang box that houses the outlet that the PLM is connected to on the same circuit. This 2477S does not flash at all. 

(2) One wall switch in the living room flashes red. Another switch in this 3-gang box flashes green, but it isn't controlling anything yet -- the switch itself has power, but no light to control. I'm fairly certain these two switches are on different breakers. All other switches that control lights in that room do not flash at all. Why does one flash red and the rest don't flash at all?

(3) None of the wall switches in the pool house flash during the test (connected to breaker box #1).

(4) The outletlinc in the gate control box did not flash. This is on the same circuit as the PLM (see #1 above). Connected to breaker box #2.

(5) Another 2477S is on the circuit for the 2nd driveway gate controller (connected to breaker box #3). It is flashing red. The outletlinc in the gate control box on the same circuit is not flashing at all.

At this point, the PLM seems to be able to communicate with all devices, so I'm going to try to wire a long Ethernet cable through the basement to connect the ISY to the PLM. I'd like to keep both in the climate controlled house rather than the basement (where the PLM seems to be more stable).

[Brian H]

The Ethernet style cable between the ISY994i and the PLM. Is RS232 serial  communications not Ethernet.

Others here have used longer cables. Mostly with success but you may want to just keep it in the back of your mind.

[oh2bnMaine]

18 minutes ago, Brian H said:

The Ethernet style cable between the ISY994i and the PLM. Is RS232 serial  communications not Ethernet.

Others here have used longer cables. Mostly with success but you may want to just keep it in the back of your mind.

Thank you. The CAT6e I used worked (so far). I"ll keep the OEM just in case though.

[Teken]

2476... sorry, I got that wrong. I have a bunch of 2477's among other things. I have 25 2476's from years ago in my other property, and that number sticks we me more than 2477. Sorry for the confusion. I've included a screenshot of the devices with the hope to clear that up and prove I'm not insane. 

Green = "Device connects the phases to SwitchLinc." ... from the manual. What does that really mean?

Red = "Device does not connect the phases to SwitchLinc. Relocate device if necessary (and where practical)." Is there something I can do with the wiring in my house while I have walls exposed to get this to flash green instead?

I did the beacon test and am even more confused now. Again, I'm hoping to learn something here, so please bear with me. 

I got the test running. That was the easy part.  Below are some observations. I'm not sure what it all means at this point, since all the devices are very stable with the current location of the PLM. Can someone help me interpret?

(1) The PLM is plugged into a "dumb" outlet in the basement. This is connected to breaker box #2. There's a 2477S in the same 2-gang box that houses the outlet that the PLM is connected to on the same circuit. This 2477S does not flash at all. 

(2) One wall switch in the living room flashes red. Another switch in this 3-gang box flashes green, but it isn't controlling anything yet -- the switch itself has power, but no light to control. I'm fairly certain these two switches are on different breakers. All other switches that control lights in that room do not flash at all. Why does one flash red and the rest don't flash at all?

(3) None of the wall switches in the pool house flash during the test (connected to breaker box #1).

(4) The outletlinc in the gate control box did not flash. This is on the same circuit as the PLM (see #1 above). Connected to breaker box #2.

(5) Another 2477S is on the circuit for the 2nd driveway gate controller (connected to breaker box #3). It is flashing red. The outletlinc in the gate control box on the same circuit is not flashing at all.

At this point, the PLM seems to be able to communicate with all devices, so I'm going to try to wire a long Ethernet cable through the basement to connect the ISY to the PLM. I'd like to keep both in the climate controlled house rather than the basement (where the PLM seems to be more stable).

 

Hi Bill,

 

When the 4 tap beacon test results in seeing the colour red on other hardware they are on the same electrical leg.

 

A green colour LED on other devices indicate they are on the opposite electrical leg (this is good) and for that area, floor, zone is bridges / coupled via Insteon RF.

 

No blinking, no colour, on those dual band hardware devices indicates there is no bridging / coupling possible via Insteon RF. This can be caused by building material, physical distance, RFI / EMI noise makers - signal suckers in that area.

 

As noted early on you may find completing the 4 tap beacon test (both ways) will yield head scratching results of no coupling, to coupling?!?

 

Thus, it’s imperative to complete the 4 tap beacon test in both directions from sender to receiver - to - receiver to sender.

 

Having completed hundreds of Insteon installs my best practice has always been to insure coupling is seen at least on each floor. If time and money isn’t an issue each area, zone, is coupled. If you don’t have any On-Off Plug-in relay modules consider buying a multi pack.

 

This device has to be one of the best Insteon hardware from the company. As it offers special features not seen in many other older products. Having a plug allows you to move it to a location to assist in bridging the Insteon network.

 

The added benefit is it can be used to control a primary device instead of just buying the stand alone AP!

 

As an aside I’ve used 75 feet of high quality (23 AWG) CAT7 shielded cable to extend the 2413S PLM to the ISY Series Controller without issue. But as noted shorter lengths are preferred as RS-232 serial data doesn’t like long distances!!

 

Let us know how you make out!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oh2bnMaine]

Thanks Teken.

That's great information. I'm on my third implementation (translation: house), which has turned out to be the most challenging. This house has two layers of stucco (and the required mesh lattice to hold it in place). And then the electrician that did the pool house used metal boxes even though I asked for plastic. So, I know I'm dealing with a lot of interference.

I did the beacon test from each of my range extenders -- one in each building. When I do the test from the range extender in the pool house, all switches in the pool house light up either red or green. When I do the test from the main house, all switches in the main house flash red or green. No device in the other structure (including the other range extender) ever lights up during either test, though.

Still, I have no communication issues, so what does that really mean? Am I fussing over what amounts to nothing? 

This might be my last question. How is it that one light switch in a 3-gang box flashes green while the other two flash red?

 

[Brian H]

It could be the switches maybe on different circuit beakers and maybe on opposite phases or same phase.

If you want to see how the LED on the 2413S PLM acts. The Version 2 2443 Access Points use the same main board as the  PLM. Its manual gives the LED colors and patterns.

http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/2443.pdf

[Teken]

Thanks Teken.

That's great information. I'm on my third implementation (translation: house), which has turned out to be the most challenging. This house has two layers of stucco (and the required mesh lattice to hold it in place). And then the electrician that did the pool house used metal boxes even though I asked for plastic. So, I know I'm dealing with a lot of interference.

I did the beacon test from each of my range extenders -- one in each building. When I do the test from the range extender in the pool house, all switches in the pool house light up either red or green. When I do the test from the main house, all switches in the main house flash red or green. No device in the other structure (including the other range extender) ever lights up during either test, though.

Still, I have no communication issues, so what does that really mean? Am I fussing over what amounts to nothing? 

This might be my last question. How is it that one light switch in a 3-gang box flashes green while the other two flash red?

 

 

Honestly, if everything works as expected just move on an enjoy your wonderful home.

 

A couple of extra technical points to call out to help better guide you along with factual insight. I use all of these little built in tools to get a better idea and *Big Picture* of the install site.

 

The ISY Series Controller has several great diagnostic tools which should be used to gauge performance or identify possible barriers in the environment.

 

Level 3 Logging: When set you can see how many hops (3 max) have been used. In the ideal world it would require just a single hop and two hops remain. If you consistently see 1 hop to achieve a response of on / off.

 

You have a very solid Insteon network!

 

If on the other hand you see a max hop of 3 being used this indicates noise makers / signal suckers in the environment. Now, let’s just say that X device regardless of the hops left, just works?!?

 

Fuss over it or work through it?!?

 

That is up to each person to decide!

 

Scene Test: One of the most powerful diagnostic tools in conjunction with viewing the level 3 logs is performing a scene test. You simply activate X scene watching those lights or appliances turn on / off.

 

Again if everything operates to your expectation - Great! If not, you know what area needs your focus!

 

On vs Off: If you ever see where a load can be turned on but won’t turn off. More often than not it’s the load. If you see a load is slow to turn on from a remote switch this indicates generally speaking possible noise makers / signal suckers in the circuit.

 

Old School: Take any portable radio and tune it to a open channel that is clear from hiss / popping. Listen to it for a few minutes to gain a base line of what to expect.

 

Walk over to any LED bulb and turn it on. If you hear a dramatic shift in noise / popping you just found a potential Insteon signal killer! Now it goes without saying any LED bulb that you see that natively flickers it makes noise from buzzing, hum, to squealing is a prime candidate to be removed.

 

Error Blink: The latest generation of Insteon dimmers include a dual colour indicator from green to red. Use it to determine possible line issues along with the other diagnostics noted above.

 

Now Rock On . . .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk