PLM Issues, something else? :(

[phlojo]

As of a few weeks ago, maybe a month or two, I have noticed an increased amount of issues with my system.   Programs do not start or often stop certain devices.  This includes ISY programs or events/scenes i used to reliably trigger via Echo.  I even had irrigation zones that were not supposed to turn on, turn on randomly.  Last but not least, even within the Admin Console I am often not able to turn devices on and off seamlessly.  Sometimes it takes 3 to 4 clicks to turn something on/off, other times it works ok.  Many devices have been given me connection/communication errors.

Is this a PLM issues?  Is my PL going bad?  I purchased it in 2014 and have not had any issues with my system until recently.  

How could I tell for certain it is the PLM and not something else?

[Brian H]

2413S PLM not the power line only 2412S?  ISY994i not the older ISY99i?  PRO model?

Look in the Tools,Diagnostics, Show PLM Link Table and see how many links are in it. Empty or almost empty is one of the symptoms of a PLM starting to fail. If it is empty or almost empty Restore Modem (PLM) some times helps for awhile.

Another symptom would be power cycling the PLM makes things better for awhile.

Do you know the Revision Number and Production Date Code? Usually on a sticker on the back side of the PLM.

Any thing over 2 years and a few months old could start having problems but others here have them for longer and no issues.

Any new or moved electronic devices in the home? Another possibility is a electronic device is making power line noise or absorbing the power line signals.

 

[phlojo]

Thank you Brian.  I will systematically look through all the suggestions here.

Meanwhile - the PLM has the following info on the back: 2413S V2.0 1444 

ISY994i Not Pro.

[phlojo]

8 hours ago, Brian H said:

2413S PLM not the power line only 2412S?  ISY994i not the older ISY99i?  PRO model?

Look in the Tools,Diagnostics, Show PLM Link Table and see how many links are in it. Empty or almost empty is one of the symptoms of a PLM starting to fail. If it is empty or almost empty Restore Modem (PLM) some times helps for awhile.

Another symptom would be power cycling the PLM makes things better for awhile.

Do you know the Revision Number and Production Date Code? Usually on a sticker on the back side of the PLM.

Any thing over 2 years and a few months old could start having problems but others here have them for longer and no issues.

Any new or moved electronic devices in the home? Another possibility is a electronic device is making power line noise or absorbing the power line signals.

 

Brian,

I have disconnected a small fridge that we recently added but it doesn't look like anything has improved.
I have also done the Show PLM Link Table and it returned a full list of over 250 entries.  I didn't see it being empty or almost empty.

Upon further troubleshooting while in the Admin Console, I noticed that more often than not the ON command makes it but the OFF command doesn't, until I send it multiple times.  Almost every interaction with a device results in some Communication Error.  From the Event Viewer I see a number of ERR 0 and ERR 1.

I also noticed that the PLM green light is always ON.  I am not certain but I think remember seeing it blink when commands were being sent.  The Set button next to the LED always on light also doesn't seem to do anything...

Could it be that the PLM is currently only working over RF and not over Powerline?  How could I tell if that is the case?

Any other ideas? 

I am super frustrated about the situation...   Any help is appreciated.

[Brian H]

Here is the Error List from the UDI Wiki. https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Errors_And_Error_Messages.

Error 1 is Request_Failed_Error. I don't see 0 in the list but have seen it in some Even Viewer entries  when a module was marked as not responding in the Administrative Console.

On but not Off can sometimes be the load making noise when On effecting the power line signals enough that  marginal communications  have issues when On.

Are your modules Dual Band where both RF and Power Line is being used?

If you run the built in communications tests in Dual Band Modules. You can observe the LED on the PLM to see how it acts with different modules in the setup. If you tap the Set Button on the PLM 4 times it should start the PLM as the test sender. Then observe other Dual band Modulus for their LED actions. Not all modules may respond from each module you start the test from.

My PLM LED does flash briefly with some Insteon Messages. Some modules have an option to flash their LED on traffic. That may also give you some clues to how communications are going. Some may also flash on power line noise.

PLM: 2413S V2.0 1444.  Revision 2.0, Week 44 of 2014. 

Will have to think on ways to see if the PLM is failing. It is old enough to be failing.

[phlojo]

16 hours ago, Brian H said:

Here is the Error List from the UDI Wiki. https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Errors_And_Error_Messages.

Error 1 is Request_Failed_Error. I don't see 0 in the list but have seen it in some Even Viewer entries  when a module was marked as not responding in the Administrative Console.

On but not Off can sometimes be the load making noise when On effecting the power line signals enough that  marginal communications  have issues when On.

Are your modules Dual Band where both RF and Power Line is being used?

If you run the built in communications tests in Dual Band Modules. You can observe the LED on the PLM to see how it acts with different modules in the setup. If you tap the Set Button on the PLM 4 times it should start the PLM as the test sender. Then observe other Dual band Modulus for their LED actions. Not all modules may respond from each module you start the test from.

My PLM LED does flash briefly with some Insteon Messages. Some modules have an option to flash their LED on traffic. That may also give you some clues to how communications are going. Some may also flash on power line noise.

PLM: 2413S V2.0 1444.  Revision 2.0, Week 44 of 2014. 

Will have to think on ways to see if the PLM is failing. It is old enough to be failing.

Thanks again Brian.

How do I do this: "If you run the built in communications tests in Dual Band Modules. "

I am not sure how to run these tests for the modules.  Is this different from module to module?

Is there any way of measuring/confirming/analyzing if the load is making noise?   I have a Sense device, would I be able to identify noise with it?  What would I be looking for?

F

[phlojo]

16 hours ago, Brian H said:

Here is the Error List from the UDI Wiki. https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Errors_And_Error_Messages.

Error 1 is Request_Failed_Error. I don't see 0 in the list but have seen it in some Even Viewer entries  when a module was marked as not responding in the Administrative Console.

On but not Off can sometimes be the load making noise when On effecting the power line signals enough that  marginal communications  have issues when On.

Are your modules Dual Band where both RF and Power Line is being used?

If you run the built in communications tests in Dual Band Modules. You can observe the LED on the PLM to see how it acts with different modules in the setup. If you tap the Set Button on the PLM 4 times it should start the PLM as the test sender. Then observe other Dual band Modulus for their LED actions. Not all modules may respond from each module you start the test from.

My PLM LED does flash briefly with some Insteon Messages. Some modules have an option to flash their LED on traffic. That may also give you some clues to how communications are going. Some may also flash on power line noise.

PLM: 2413S V2.0 1444.  Revision 2.0, Week 44 of 2014. 

Will have to think on ways to see if the PLM is failing. It is old enough to be failing.

the answer to the question: Are your modules Dual Band where both RF and Power Line is being used?

Yes, most of them are.  I have a large amount of in wall switches or dimmer switches, on/off lamp modules etc....  And many door sensors etc.

It feels like everything that is over RF only, like door switches and such is working ok.

[Brian H]

17 hours ago, phlojo said:

Thanks again Brian.

How do I do this: "If you run the built in communications tests in Dual Band Modules. "

I am not sure how to run these tests for the modules.  Is this different from module to module?

Is there any way of measuring/confirming/analyzing if the load is making noise?   I have a Sense device, would I be able to identify noise with it?  What would I be looking for?

F

The Communications Tests. AKA 4 Tap or Beacon Tests. Are documented in the modules users manuals. Most of the earlier modules manuals you taped the Set Button 4 times and it started the test from that module. In later firmware it was called the Beacon Tests. Some still used the 4 tap method and other you had a flow chart in the manual. Of Set Button Taps and LED flash patterns to start the test.

You then looked at other modules LED for flashing pattern of Red or Green [Dual Color LEDs] or Bright or Flashing Bright [Single color LED ]. No pattern that module is not seeing the test. Green or Bright LED. Communicating and on opposite phase. Red or Flashing Bright. Communicating on the same phase. As the test could also determine if the modules are on the same phase or opposite phase. For doing phase coupling. Not all modules are going to see every other module and normal.

Making noise. If the module has a option for flashing the modules LED on power line communications. They sometimes will flash on the noise. Unplugging a  device and then looking for improvements. That can take a while to disconnect and then see if thing are better.

The Scene Tests in the Test menu can also sometimes show things. Getting better or worse as a device is disconnected.

If you have an X10 power line tester. They can show noise in the x10/Insteon message frequency on the power lines. Unfortunately most here don't have access to such a meter.

I have not seen anything officially from Insteon but I think the modules are polite. Enough noise on the power lines may have the module wait until it thinks it is OK so send.

It may not be a noise maker. Some electronic device are Signal Suckers. Their power input to stop their internal noise from getting back on the power line. Put a capacitor across the AC input and absorb X10 and Insteon as noise. Unplugging and seeing if things get better. Things like Computer Power Supplies or having an UPS's AC input and PLM on the same circuit can effect the PLM's power line communications. I have a FilterLinc on my UPS and the PLM in the unfiltered outlet on the front.

[phlojo]

7 hours ago, Brian H said:

The Communications Tests. AKA 4 Tap or Beacon Tests. Are documented in the modules users manuals. Most of the earlier modules manuals you taped the Set Button 4 times and it started the test from that module. In later firmware it was called the Beacon Tests. Some still used the 4 tap method and other you had a flow chart in the manual. Of Set Button Taps and LED flash patterns to start the test.

You then looked at other modules LED for flashing pattern of Red or Green [Dual Color LEDs] or Bright or Flashing Bright [Single color LED ]. No pattern that module is not seeing the test. Green or Bright LED. Communicating and on opposite phase. Red or Flashing Bright. Communicating on the same phase. As the test could also determine if the modules are on the same phase or opposite phase. For doing phase coupling. Not all modules are going to see every other module and normal.

Making noise. If the module has a option for flashing the modules LED on power line communications. They sometimes will flash on the noise. Unplugging a  device and then looking for improvements. That can take a while to disconnect and then see if thing are better.

The Scene Tests in the Test menu can also sometimes show things. Getting better or worse as a device is disconnected.

If you have an X10 power line tester. They can show noise in the x10/Insteon message frequency on the power lines. Unfortunately most here don't have access to such a meter.

I have not seen anything officially from Insteon but I think the modules are polite. Enough noise on the power lines may have the module wait until it thinks it is OK so send.

It may not be a noise maker. Some electronic device are Signal Suckers. Their power input to stop their internal noise from getting back on the power line. Put a capacitor across the AC input and absorb X10 and Insteon as noise. Unplugging and seeing if things get better. Things like Computer Power Supplies or having an UPS's AC input and PLM on the same circuit can effect the PLM's power line communications. I have a FilterLinc on my UPS and the PLM in the unfiltered outlet on the front.

Thank you so much for all this great info!

I do have a new desktop all-in one computer that it is now plugged in the same outlet as the PLM modem.  I will troubleshoot based on your ideas and recommendations.

[phlojo]

On 8/28/2020 at 3:45 AM, Brian H said:

The Communications Tests. AKA 4 Tap or Beacon Tests. Are documented in the modules users manuals. Most of the earlier modules manuals you taped the Set Button 4 times and it started the test from that module. In later firmware it was called the Beacon Tests. Some still used the 4 tap method and other you had a flow chart in the manual. Of Set Button Taps and LED flash patterns to start the test.

You then looked at other modules LED for flashing pattern of Red or Green [Dual Color LEDs] or Bright or Flashing Bright [Single color LED ]. No pattern that module is not seeing the test. Green or Bright LED. Communicating and on opposite phase. Red or Flashing Bright. Communicating on the same phase. As the test could also determine if the modules are on the same phase or opposite phase. For doing phase coupling. Not all modules are going to see every other module and normal.

Making noise. If the module has a option for flashing the modules LED on power line communications. They sometimes will flash on the noise. Unplugging a  device and then looking for improvements. That can take a while to disconnect and then see if thing are better.

The Scene Tests in the Test menu can also sometimes show things. Getting better or worse as a device is disconnected.

If you have an X10 power line tester. They can show noise in the x10/Insteon message frequency on the power lines. Unfortunately most here don't have access to such a meter.

I have not seen anything officially from Insteon but I think the modules are polite. Enough noise on the power lines may have the module wait until it thinks it is OK so send.

It may not be a noise maker. Some electronic device are Signal Suckers. Their power input to stop their internal noise from getting back on the power line. Put a capacitor across the AC input and absorb X10 and Insteon as noise. Unplugging and seeing if things get better. Things like Computer Power Supplies or having an UPS's AC input and PLM on the same circuit can effect the PLM's power line communications. I have a FilterLinc on my UPS and the PLM in the unfiltered outlet on the front.

Brian, in the end a new PLM took care of the problems.  So it looks like it was just another PLM biting the dust....

Thanks for all your guidance and suggestions.