Improving Communication

[raptor]

Recently I have 2 switches that don't always turn on/off when scenes are triggered. When ISY and insteon switches were first installed in the house it was done by a local vendor. At the time they installed 2-access point #2443. I believe these were there to help communication.  Reading up on them they appear to only have a 2 year lifespan. Well these were installed 10 plus years ago. I assume they have been dead for a while but only recently started having issues. These appear to no longer be available. What can I add or do to help the communication between devices in my home?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, raptor said:

Recently I have 2 switches that don't always turn on/off when scenes are triggered. When ISY and insteon switches were first installed in the house it was done by a local vendor. At the time they installed 2-access point #2443. I believe these were there to help communication.  Reading up on them they appear to only have a 2 year lifespan. Well these were installed 10 plus years ago. I assume they have been dead for a while but only recently started having issues. These appear to no longer be available. What can I add or do to help the communication between devices in my home?

It would help if you said the issues you were having and what the switches were. 

[raptor]

The 2 devices are 2476DH switchlinc and 2476D switchlinc. 45 minutes before sunset ISY sends power on to a button on 8 button keypad 2486D keypadlinc. When that button is turned on it turns on the switches mentioned above along with another switch 2476ST switchlinc. When this event is triggered the first 2 mentioned don't always turn on. One of them turn on most of the time the other doesn't turn on most of the time. Ironical the third one that turns on every time is the one the furthest away. Actually in a different building(detached garage)

[lilyoyo1]

24 minutes ago, raptor said:

The 2 devices are 2476DH switchlinc and 2476D switchlinc. 45 minutes before sunset ISY sends power on to a button on 8 button keypad 2486D keypadlinc. When that button is turned on it turns on the switches mentioned above along with another switch 2476ST switchlinc. When this event is triggered the first 2 mentioned don't always turn on. One of them turn on most of the time the other doesn't turn on most of the time. Ironical the third one that turns on every time is the one the furthest away. Actually in a different building(detached garage)

Is this via a scene or a program? Doesn't sound like the devices are bad. Just communication issues overall and potential programming issues. What type of bulbs are you using?

[raptor]

Via a program in ISY that send on to the keypad. The keypad is a controller for the other 3 switches. Maybe I should change the program to turn on each switch individually? I believe the bulbs are LED, but not 100% sure.

[MrBill]

43 minutes ago, raptor said:

When that button is turned on it turns on the switches mentioned above along with another switch 2476ST switchlinc.

Scene's don't work like that.  If you turn on a button from the ISY it does not turn on an associated scene.  The button might be included in scene that is turned on tho.

 

[raptor]

3 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Scene's don't work like that.  If you turn on a button from the ISY it does not turn on an associated scene.  The button might be included in scene that is turned on tho.

 

Isy turns on KP-E. Which controls the other 3 switches.

[MrBill]

3 minutes ago, raptor said:

Isy turns on KP-E. Which controls the other 3 switches.

That's not possible the ISY must be turning on the scene named "Backdoor KP-E Outside".  The button itself named "Backdoor KP - E" can not be directly controlled via the ISY.  That button when pressed manually is a scene controller (because it's red).

[lilyoyo1]

55 minutes ago, raptor said:

Via a program in ISY that send on to the keypad. The keypad is a controller for the other 3 switches. Maybe I should change the program to turn on each switch individually? I believe the bulbs are LED, but not 100% sure.

The program should turn on the whole scene not just the kpl

Edited August 10, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[raptor]

23 minutes ago, MrBill said:

That's not possible the ISY must be turning on the scene named "Backdoor KP-E Outside".  The button itself named "Backdoor KP - E" can not be directly controlled via the ISY.  That button when pressed manually is a scene controller (because it's red).

Yeah your right. It turns on the scene, not the button. Does this means the ISY  sends out a command to each individual switch. If not would turning on each switch instead of the scene make it more reliable?

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, raptor said:

Yeah your right. It turns on the scene, not the button. Does this means the ISY  sends out a command to each individual switch. If not would turning on each switch instead of the scene make it more reliable?

Not necessarily. Depends on what's causing the issues. You could potentially be causing more issues than you solve by doing it that way but it is possible

[raptor]

So is there a way to improve communication? Are there any sort of repeaters I can add?

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, raptor said:

Yeah your right. It turns on the scene, not the button. Does this means the ISY  sends out a command to each individual switch. If not would turning on each switch instead of the scene make it more reliable?

Turning on each switch can be a band-aid fix, but it doesn't address the root cause.  But no, when the scene is turned on the ISY does not send a separate command to each switch.  The scene has it's own "link" and it's received by all the switches.  Your real problem is that you have a Noise Generator and/or single sucker that is preventing good communication.   When this suddenly starts occurring to someone we ask what is new? What has changed recently?  Did you get a new appliance... add LED lightbulbs where there weren't any before.

Here's a wiki article: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=INSTEON_Signal_/_Noise_Troubleshooting

 

[raptor]

About a month ago I got a new ISY. Mine was like 15 years old and obsolete. I didn't notice any issues at the time. Besides that I have not added any electronics or LED's. Had the issue with one of those switches a while back, probably like 6+ months ago and it went away. Suddenly came back.

[MrBill]

That's probably easier to find than a constant issue.   People have reported they figured out to things like "Oh it was a drill battery charger", something that's only plugged in sometimes.  We used to have a deep fryer that was on about 1 hour a week.... it killed Insteon.  To expand upon the LED issue, if it's an LED bulb emitting electronic noise or sucking the signal it likely only happens when the bulb is on, when switched off it's not emitting noise-- same holds true with other devices.

[raptor]

I do have some LED bulb in the house. Will keep an eye out to see if these are on/off when there's an issue. Or may replace them temporarily to test. I may also try moving ISY/PLM to different location. There both in the basement at the moment. I assume if I can install on the main floor that would help? My start having issues with basement light after though.

[MrBill]

8 minutes ago, raptor said:

I do have some LED bulb in the house. Will keep an eye out to see if these are on/off when there's an issue. Or may replace them temporarily to test. I may also try moving ISY/PLM to different location. There both in the basement at the moment. I assume if I can install on the main floor that would help? My start having issues with basement light after though.

2476 I believe are Single Band devices.  Moving the ISY might help, but not for the reason you think, nor does the first floor matter-- the "signals" are not RF, but carried on the powerline.  There's others here that are better at single band device issues than I am, and if the 2443's are in fact bad, repairing them might be one option.  Another might be updating some of the devices to dual band.

Edited August 10, 2021 by MrBill

[lilyoyo1]

If the 2443s were bad, i would think he would be missing signals throughout half the house vs a few specific devices. 

If you're not using CFL or led bulbs with those lights, you could unplug everything on that circuit and see what happens. Plug everything in 1 at a time while testing and once you find the culprit, put a filter on it. 

[raptor]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If the 2443s were bad, i would think he would be missing signals throughout half the house vs a few specific devices. 

If you're not using CFL or led bulbs with those lights, you could unplug everything on that circuit and see what happens. Plug everything in 1 at a time while testing and once you find the culprit, put a filter on it. 

One of the 2443 doesn't even do anything. I tried doing a factory reset and get no led light blinking or any beeps. The second one beeped when I did factory reset and seems to reset ok. But since then every time I plug it in it starts buzing real loud a few minutes after. So I unplug it and is sitting on the counter.  Have no issues with any other devices in the house.  Those switches are connected to LED's and have been for years. Not had issues before. And they haven't been replace recently with new LED. Install LED few years ago and it's still the same ones.

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, raptor said:

One of the 2443 doesn't even do anything. I tried doing a factory reset and get no led light blinking or any beeps. The second one beeped when I did factory reset and seems to reset ok. But since then every time I plug it in it starts buzing real loud a few minutes after. So I unplug it and is sitting on the counter.  Have no issues with any other devices in the house.  Those switches are connected to LED's and have been for years. Not had issues before. And they haven't been replace recently with new LED. Install LED few years ago and it's still the same ones.

Is your whole house older devices? I'm surprised you're not having issues with more devices as the phases would not be bridged if the 2443 were bad. 

You could always try to replace the suspect bulbs with incandescent bulbs temporarily to see what happens. We can only give you the usual suspects

[raptor]

Mostly older devices. A few newer devices. Do newer devices communicate better? Maybe I should start upgrading. Starting with the 2 that are giving problems.

[lilyoyo1]

23 minutes ago, raptor said:

Mostly older devices. A few newer devices. Do newer devices communicate better? Maybe I should start upgrading. Starting with the 2 that are giving problems.

They do work better. I'd try to solve the problem in the mean time. 

[Teken]

Recently I have 2 switches that don't always turn on/off when scenes are triggered. When ISY and insteon switches were first installed in the house it was done by a local vendor. At the time they installed 2-access point #2443. I believe these were there to help communication.  Reading up on them they appear to only have a 2 year lifespan. Well these were installed 10 plus years ago. I assume they have been dead for a while but only recently started having issues. These appear to no longer be available. What can I add or do to help the communication between devices in my home?

The reason the AP (Access Points) existed was in the past the vast majority of Insteon hardware was single band. Thus the need to use the AP to bridge and couple both sides of the (120-240 VAC) single split phase electrical in the home.

Given one AP doesn’t work and you only have a couple of dual band hardware in place the Insteon signal is being affected. As others have mentioned it’s time upgrade and purchase a few dual band switches.

Keep in mind you still need to confirm proper bridging / coupling as outlined in the full users manual as it pertains to completing the beacon test. Even if you see a successful beacon test it does not negate the need to identify signal suckers vs noise makers.

These need to be filtered, replaced, or removed.

Lastly, if you’re going to slowly replace some hardware do so where a dual band device is installed on each floor, outer wall, and by the service panel.

Good Luck

[Brian H]

The life span of a 2443 Access Point.

May depend on the revision. All the 1.? ones where on the old 2412 base assembly with its RF Daughter Board. Would have a longer life time. Than the V2.? ones built on the 2413 base assembly. Along with the power supply issues we have seen with the 2413S PLM. I had two of the revision 2 models have power supply issues. I rebuilt them but have switched back to a pair of V1.6 Access Points.

[kclenden]

10 hours ago, raptor said:

What can I add or do to help the communication between devices in my home?

You can use the Admin Console to help troubleshoot.  In the AC choose TOOLS->DIAGNOSTICS->EVENT VIEWER.  In the Event Viewer change the LEVEL to "3. Device communications events".  With the Event Viewer open, try switching ON and OFF the troublesome devices.  After each command, look in the Event Viewer for "Std-Direct Ack]"  On those lines you'll see "Max Hops=" and "Hops Left=".

When a command is sent via Insteon it is allowed to be repeated a certain number of times.  That is defined by "Max Hops".  You can tell how many times the command was repeated before the device received it by looking at "Hops Left".  If "Max Hops" and "Hops Left" are the same, it means the device heard the command the first time.  If you subtract "Hops Left" from "Max Hops", that tells you how many times the command had to be repeated before the device heard the command.

With this information, you can try turning other devices ON/OFF (or plugging/unplugging) and then commanding the troublesome devices to see if the average "Hops Left" changes.

Edited August 10, 2021 by kclenden