Need a 2475DA2 Ballast Dimmer (0-10v)

[brookbphx]

I'll apologize in advance if this is against the rules to ask if something is for sale on here.  I can't find the posting rules for this forum.  But considering how hard it is to get products from Smarthome these days, this forum seems like a potentially good place for folks who need Smarthome products to ask around and see if anyone has spares for sale.

I need a 2475DA2 - a 0-10v ballast dimmer for controlling fluourescent or LED dimmable ballasts/drivers.   I set up a custom dimmable LED device in the past using one of these, and it worked great.  Now I'm trying to create another dimmable LED project.  I had it all planned out with lots of components already purchased.   Thought I'd just buy me a 2475DA2 to control it.  But nope.  There aren't any.  And it seems doubtful that Smarthome will make them again.

So, do any of you HA fans out there have any 'spares' of the 2475DA2 you'd be willing to sell?

Thank you much in advance.

[MrBill]

I assume you saw the 5 on eBay 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144056662776

[brookbphx]

Hi MrBill

Thank you for pointing me to those.   Yes, I saw them.   I sent a query to the guy to ask if he wanted $250 for five of them or if it was $250 each.  The answer was $250 each.  Yikes!  While I really want one of these, that is just too much for me.   So far, I have roughly 50 Insteon devices and perhaps 12 older X10 based devices, and I've been sticking with that for years, avoiding transitioning to Z-wave or Zigbee.  But now, I'm starting to think this might be the time to start the transition to Z-wave.  I LOVE the built-in 'scene' capabilities of Insteon (and older SmartHome X10 products surprisingly) where switches can be programmed with scenes and you don't have to depend on a controller to implement the scenes.    From what I can see, neither Z-wave nor Zigbee support that - or if they do, it is not as easily managed as it is with the ISY.  Program your scenes with ISY, and then the ISY is not required in many cases.  If the ISY goes down (which has not yet happened to me), the scenes would still work.  (Yes I do have some specialty scenes that use ISY programs, but most of my house uses the Insteon built-in scene capability, and the ISY primarily provides 'programming' functionality.)

Anyway, if nobody has a spare 2475DA2 they'd be willing to sell for an affordable price within the next week or two, my plan is to add the Z-wave Plus module and use something like a Qubino Z-Wave Plus 0-10 V Dimmer ZMNHVD3 .    I'll probably spend $150 on that stuff, including a power supply for the Qubino, but then I'll be ready for additional Z-Wave devices.   I'll try to keep the Insteon components where I have lots of scenes.  Luckily this LED project doesn't need to be part of any multi-dimmer scenes, so Z-wave should work just fine for that.

Still looking for a 2475DA2 if anyone has one at an affordable price, but I have my backup plan as well.

Thanks!

 

[MrBill]

12 hours ago, brookbphx said:

The answer was $250 each.  Yikes!

I fixed to for ya... that is a slimy ad.    I took a close look after you posted... extremely misleading.  Happy you asked.

[Brian H]

I have also seen some EBay vendors ads being misleading. To say the least.

[jwagner010]

Before I installed my Insteon ballast solution a couple years back I was thinking about a leviton pe300-Dow behind a z-wave dimmer switch.  Figured it would be simpler once set up to control. Not sure if others have experience with one of these?

ps not a cheap option. 

[brookbphx]

I was looking at that Leviton e300-Dow as another 'alternative' if I couldn't find a 2475DA2.  It's certainly something to consider, but its on the lower end of my list of preferences due to cost and due to adding another layer of complexity.

Std Triac Insteon Dimmer---> Leviton E300 ---> (10v) ---> 0-10v LED Dimmable Ballast ---> LED assembly

However, unless someone has a horror story about it, or if I just can't get it, I'll probably go with the Qubino thing.  It's smaller and cheaper.  But it's got additional complexity as well, since it doesn't run on 120vac

 

                ---->120vacto24vdc PS---->Qubino--\
               /                                                                      \ (0-10v dim signal)
120v  --/--------------------------------->LED Dimmable Ballast(0-10v)--->LED Assembly

Still hoping someone comes up with an 2475DA2 they have laying around and would be willing to sell. 

[apostolakisl]

On 8/24/2021 at 11:46 AM, brookbphx said:

I was looking at that Leviton e300-Dow as another 'alternative' if I couldn't find a 2475DA2.  It's certainly something to consider, but its on the lower end of my list of preferences due to cost and due to adding another layer of complexity.

Std Triac Insteon Dimmer---> Leviton E300 ---> (10v) ---> 0-10v LED Dimmable Ballast ---> LED assembly

However, unless someone has a horror story about it, or if I just can't get it, I'll probably go with the Qubino thing.  It's smaller and cheaper.  But it's got additional complexity as well, since it doesn't run on 120vac

 

                ---->120vacto24vdc PS---->Qubino--\
               /                                                                      \ (0-10v dim signal)
120v  --/--------------------------------->LED Dimmable Ballast(0-10v)--->LED Assembly

Still hoping someone comes up with an 2475DA2 they have laying around and would be willing to sell. 

I wasn't aware of this Leviton device.  Sadly it is $200.  It appears to be a sinking 10v dimmer, which is what I need.  I bought an Insteon 10v dimmer only to discover it is a 10v sourcing dimmer.  Very few fixtures I have seen use 10v sourcing, including mine.  I also looked at the qubino, but I'm not certain it would work.

[brookbphx]

Yeah, the Insteon 10v dimmer just has a 0-10v output that is meant to drive the 0-10v input of a dimming ballast, such as for LEDs or fluourescent lights. The Leviton device, from what I understand, is meant to receive the 120v dimmed output signals from a normal triac-based dimmer, and convert those to a 0-10v output which is then suitable for driving the 0-10v input of a dimmable ballast.   For some examples of LED dimmable ballasts that work with a 0-10v input, see https://ballastshop.com/brands/mean-well/#?Category0=Brands&Category1=Mean+Well&search_return=all&Customfielddimming=0-10+Analog^Analog+(0-10V)  . 

The Insteon, the Qubino, and the Leviton all create 0-10v outputs, which to me means they 'source' the 0-10v voltage which is then sent to a ballast which receives it (sinks it).  The ballast uses the 0-10v input to create the proper dimmed voltage/current needed by the lights being driven (LED or Fluourescent).

That being said, if you purchased an Insteon 2475DA2 0-10v dimmer that's still in good condition and you aren't using it, I know someone who might be willing to buy it.    Me.

[apostolakisl]

4 hours ago, brookbphx said:

Yeah, the Insteon 10v dimmer just has a 0-10v output that is meant to drive the 0-10v input of a dimming ballast, such as for LEDs or fluourescent lights. The Leviton device, from what I understand, is meant to receive the 120v dimmed output signals from a normal triac-based dimmer, and convert those to a 0-10v output which is then suitable for driving the 0-10v input of a dimmable ballast.   For some examples of LED dimmable ballasts that work with a 0-10v input, see https://ballastshop.com/brands/mean-well/#?Category0=Brands&Category1=Mean+Well&search_return=all&Customfielddimming=0-10+Analog^Analog+(0-10V)  . 

The Insteon, the Qubino, and the Leviton all create 0-10v outputs, which to me means they 'source' the 0-10v voltage which is then sent to a ballast which receives it (sinks it).  The ballast uses the 0-10v input to create the proper dimmed voltage/current needed by the lights being driven (LED or Fluourescent).

That being said, if you purchased an Insteon 2475DA2 0-10v dimmer that's still in good condition and you aren't using it, I know someone who might be willing to buy it.    Me.

No.  Most led ballasts output 10v and the dimmer is supposed to sink the voltage, not produce the voltage.  The leviton device does convert your standard 120v dimmed output to 0-10v signal.  But it is not creating the 10v, it is sinking the 10v through a potentiometer, infinite resistance =10v, closed circuit = 0v, and everything between.

[jwagner010]

On 8/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, apostolakisl said:

I wasn't aware of this Leviton device.  Sadly it is $200.  It appears to be a sinking 10v dimmer, which is what I need.  I bought an Insteon 10v dimmer only to discover it is a 10v sourcing dimmer.  Very few fixtures I have seen use 10v sourcing, including mine.  I also looked at the qubino, but I'm not certain it would work.

I was lucky I needed it for a haiku ceiling fan with a 0-10v driver module that “sinks or sources” voltage, so I was good either way.  As I mentioned, I went with the Insteon device, but if it breaks and is no longer available I will just get the Leviton as my backup plan behind a z-wave 120v dimmer switch.  There was a pe300-Dow on e-bay for $70 earlier this week which would lessen the blow to the hip pocket for you.

[brookbphx]

OK.  So after seeing apostolaskisl's response, I did a little research and now I see there are two standards for 0-10v dimming: one where the dimmer controller creates a voltage/current source that drives an input to a dimmer ballast that 'receives' that voltage to adjust how it drives its LED load.  The dimmer ballast will  also likely have a load resistor that will sink current from that controller source to ground.   That is the 'theatrical' standard. 

And then there's a non-theatrical standard (which I will refer to as a building standard) where the dimmer ballast's input has a 10v reference voltage source with series resistance.  The control node's voltage will be at 10v when it is open circuit and no current is being pulled from it.  The voltage can be externally pulled down by a dimmer controller that sinks current from it with either variable resistance to ground or by actively driving it to a lower voltage with a current sink driver.   i.e., the dimmer controller (e.g. 2475da2) sinks/pulls current from that source and pulls it down towards ground to effectively 'drive' the signal to the desired voltage by sinking current.  

So, now I see that there are different kinds of 0-10v dimmer controllers, and that they can operate in three possible ways: as a source dimmer controller (theatrical), as a sink dimmer controller (building standard), or as 'either' if it has the ability to source or sink current, thus driving the signal higher or lower in a 'push-pull' method.   

So my earlier assumption was that the 'theatrical' standard was how things worked.   I wasn't aware of the other standard (IEC 60929 Annex E, apparently).   But apostolaskisl says (and my reading indicates he's probably right) that most  non-theatrical equipment assigns the 'source' functionality to the dimmer ballast and the 'sink' functionality to the controller.     I'll probably validate that at the bench next time I get the chance - just to satisfy my curiosity - but for now, I'll trust that apostoaskisl is right.   Thanks for clarifying this for me.

Note: I tried looking at the 2475da2 and the Mean Well ballast specifications, and to me, those specs really weren't all that clear as to whether each of these devices could act as current source, sink, or source/sink.  That would be a nice thing to include in the specs, in my opinion.  But since neither of these are designed for 'theatrical' use, they're probably following the controller=sink and ballast=source standard.

[apostolakisl]

5 hours ago, brookbphx said:

 

Note: I tried looking at the 2475da2 and the Mean Well ballast specifications, and to me, those specs really weren't all that clear as to whether each of these devices could act as current source, sink, or source/sink.  That would be a nice thing to include in the specs, in my opinion.  But since neither of these are designed for 'theatrical' use, they're probably following the controller=sink and ballast=source standard.

I believe I own one of these.  Assuming Insteon ever only made one 10v dimmer, then I must.  I would have to crawl into the attic to check the model.  Anyway, it is a 10v sourcing dimmer.  Which is not what I need.  Currently I am just using it as on/off.  It also has some other functions, I forget, perhaps it has some low voltage relays in it?  Anyway, I have tried to see about adapting it to convert the 10v sourcing into sinking.  There is a thread on here where we talk about that.  I have not yet tried it.

[brookbphx]

How did you determine that it was sourcing vs. sinking vs. source/sink?  You can know if it source with a simple voltmeter, but it may also be able to sink.  They way I'd test that is by using if you have an external 10v voltage source and resistance and can verify that the 2475da2, can draw current through that resistor and lower the voltage (sink current) when its output voltage is set to a value less the the external voltage source. 

I am using a 2475da2 now with a Mean Well Ballast and some LED lights, and that has worked fine.   So either the Mean Well is a Sinking Ballast or the 2475DA2 has the capability of sinking current as well as sourcing. 

Someone just responded to my request for this ballast from this forum, and has sold me 3 of them.  I'm just waiting for delivery.  After I get one, I'll validate if it is source only or if it can both source and sink current.  But either way, I expect it will work well for me with the Mean Well ballast I plan on using, since the same setup has worked well in the past.

PS: if you don't mind external circuity and your dimmer/controller is a sourcing dimmer that does NOT also have 'sinking' capability, you can likely adapt it so that it will sink using just a few external components (NPN transistor, resistors, etc.).  It might not draw down all the way to zero volts at the minimum dim level due to the transistor's Vbe (Voltage from base to emitter - typically around 0.7v), but it should  otherwise work.

[apostolakisl]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:58 PM, brookbphx said:

How did you determine that it was sourcing vs. sinking vs. source/sink?  You can know if it source with a simple voltmeter, but it may also be able to sink.  They way I'd test that is by using if you have an external 10v voltage source and resistance and can verify that the 2475da2, can draw current through that resistor and lower the voltage (sink current) when its output voltage is set to a value less the the external voltage source. 

I am using a 2475da2 now with a Mean Well Ballast and some LED lights, and that has worked fine.   So either the Mean Well is a Sinking Ballast or the 2475DA2 has the capability of sinking current as well as sourcing. 

Someone just responded to my request for this ballast from this forum, and has sold me 3 of them.  I'm just waiting for delivery.  After I get one, I'll validate if it is source only or if it can both source and sink current.  But either way, I expect it will work well for me with the Mean Well ballast I plan on using, since the same setup has worked well in the past.

PS: if you don't mind external circuity and your dimmer/controller is a sourcing dimmer that does NOT also have 'sinking' capability, you can likely adapt it so that it will sink using just a few external components (NPN transistor, resistors, etc.).  It might not draw down all the way to zero volts at the minimum dim level due to the transistor's Vbe (Voltage from base to emitter - typically around 0.7v), but it should  otherwise work.

The first clue was it didn't dim the light despite my non-powered passive rheostat style dimmer working fine.  I put a volt meter with nothing connected to the Insteon device and I read voltages between 0 and 10 depending on how I set the dim level.  I called smarthome and read the literature and found no provision for changing the type of dimmer.  You could change attributes of the other outputs on it, but not the dimmer.  If you determine otherwise, please let me know.