Single scene unexpetedly turning itself on...at night!!!

[gfridland]

I have been trying to decipher my problem for over a week now and have not been able to resolve/understand the cause.

 

Hopefully someone here can help.

 

I have a setup with approx 60 devises including 7kpls IR-Linc, EXIO2x4 and togglelink dimmers/relays.

 

I have had this setup running for over 2 years without issue. A few weeks back, I added an additional 13 dimmers, 1 IRLinc, and 3 KPLs (included in total above)

 

Since this addition, or perhaps coincidence, I have 1 scene that triggers on its own sometime during the night. Best I can tell at the moment, between 2 and 5am. The scene consists of 6 devices. 2 KPL's where the load is part of the scene, 2 togglelinc dimmers, 1 KPL secondary button that acts as a controller and 1 KPL secondary button that acts as a responder.

 

The entire scene existed prior to new devices being installed and never had this issue.

 

All devices are triggered and ON as if the scene was called for by either a press of a button on the scene controller, or as if the ISY called it ON from a program.

 

I have gone through all my programs multiple times to verify that this is not a part of a program and as a matter of fact, this scene doesn't even exist in any of my programs.

 

I have read all links in the devices, and compared them to the Links in the ISY and all are correct with no missing ones and no mismatches.

 

Thinking that this may be an X10 issue (I do not have any X10 devices)that may be coming from a neighbor's home, I factrory reset all devices and restored the devices using the ISY. All went well, but that night, the scene turned on again.

 

I then decided to delete the scene and recreate it in the ISY...deleted all devices from the scene and created a new scene with the same devices thinking if the scene is no longer available, it can no longer be called out. Same issue, middle of the night.

 

SO here I am...trying to understand the cause an then fix it. The only event that triggers in the middle of the night is the 3AM query. I will try to disable it to see if there is something there, but the Query has always been working with out incident.

 

I have also created a test program that will notify me if any device is switched on during that timeframe. I will also try to remove all devices from the scene so I can possibly ID which device is causing the scene to trigger.

 

If no conclusive results, I will then remove the PLM to isolate the issue from the ISY.

 

What am I missing???

 

Any help would be appreciated

[oberkc]

Have you looked into the event log for any clues? Sorry if you said you did already.

[IndyMike]

gfridland,

 

You've already developed a well thought out plan. Assuming that this isn't a program that is getting tripped up, I don't have a lot to add.

 

Since an entire scene is executing, there should be a controller somewhere. As oberkc indicated, check for log file events in that time frame.

 

I have seen local line "events" fool devices into triggering on. I have a cheap strip fluorescent in our walk-in closet that periodically triggers a leviton bath fan timer (non-communicating). If the same thing were to happen with one of your Insteon devices (and it was a controller) it could communicate a local on command and trigger the scene.

 

Even if a device were "fooled" in this manner, the "control on" event should be logged.

 

IM

[gfridland]

Great ideas guys...I have never played with the event log. I just looked at it and it appears that there are no logged events.

 

I assume the java console would have to remain open and running in order to log in events?

 

I will try that this tonight.

 

I agree that is seems like there is a controller involved as the entire scene triggers...I was hoping that deleting and recreating the scene would eliminate that group from the PLM, but it didn't work. So I am also leaning on one of the devices in thhe scene, but WHY ONLY AT NIGHT??? This is what really throws my logic. This would indicate that there is a program involved that is time dependant...right? The only event I have iis the Query at 3AM...

 

Is it possible that there are links in the plm that are not matched to the ISY? I have tried to read the links in the from the PLM links table but it does not allow for the "compare" option as with the devices. Would I compare this to the ISY links table somehow?

 

HMMMM

[oberkc]

I don't know about the compare function with regards to the PLM, but I believe there is a restore function. I doubt that it would hurt to try it. Good thought.

 

Regarding the log, my experience is that one needs excel to view it. Also, make sure you enable macro's. It is a useful tool.

[gfridland]

Thanks oberkc...

 

Are you saying that the log is already "stored" or does the event viewer need to be open to log events and then allow for viewing in Exel?

 

Thanks again!

[oberkc]

There are two options. The event viewer needs to be open to see on-going events. There are no stored data here. No need for excel.

 

In addition to the event viewer, there is also a log. From what I can tell, it stores data from the beginning of time. It does not need to be open. It is here that you can see your activity from overnight.

[gfridland]

Wow!!! the log is cool...

 

Lots of information.

 

I see the scene going on at 4:16am last night...no trigger...just on at 100%. Other nights at different times, varying from 12:15am, 1:20am, ect...no pattern evident.

 

Can a neighbor have insteon devices with same address? With the addtion of my newest devices to the network, am I now able to pick up more signals that I was not able to in the past because my Insteon network is "stronger"? Insteon devices repeat signals right?

 

Seems like a stretch, but perhaps my approach should be to remove all devices from the scene and see which one is triggered by using the Log or a simple proogram...

[oberkc]

I cannot come up with any theories why you would have a scene coming on at random times. I am assuming you have no motion sensors putting signals on your lines?

 

It seems plausible to me that it may be possible to come up with some experimental scenes to help diagnose the problem.

 

I would normally think this might be some random X-10-, or insteon-like signal causing problems, but you reset your devices, so none with unkown x-10 addresses. I think it unlikely that a neighbor has a device or controller with the same address.

 

It may be possible for technical support at Universal Devices to recognize something in your log that answers your questions.

[gfridland]

I see some random X10 signals in the log, but none are in a similar time to the scene ON times. They are really randon and are not only at night.

 

I did forget to mention that I do have 1 motion sensor...but it is assosiated (through programs) with other "security scenes" that do not involve the one that is unexpainable.

 

I have removed all involved devices from the scene and set up a program for each that will notify me via text if they are turned ON. This way I hope to only have 1 device activate instead of the entire scene...this will help isolate the device.

[upstatemike]

Just curious ... is there a ControLinc button included in the scene?

[gfridland]

upstatemike,

 

I have no ControlLincs in my install.

 

The scene has 4 KPLs and 2 togglelinc dimmers...all are hardwire devices.

[TJF1960]

Hi gfridland,

 

Sounds like you have ruled out stray x10 and insteon signals triggering the scene via the log.

 

Have you looked thru the program summary tab in the isy to try and match times with the scene turning on? Or you could disable all programs for a night to rule them out once and for all.

 

Please keep us posted.

 

Tim

[gfridland]

TJF1960,

 

I have looked at the programs and the only event that occurs in the middle of the night is the 3AM query...nothing gets in the logged into the proram summary during the times of interest.

 

Now that I am able to see the logs, I know what time this occurs at...also, in the log, it states as "status" next to all devices in scene...when a program triggers an event, "program" is referenced.

 

Tonight will be the individual, removed from scene devices with recording test programs.

 

stay tuned!

[gfridland]

Update:

 

Last night, after removing all devices from the scene, nothing triggered. All individual devices that were part of the scene remained off and there were no events in the log. I will continue to monitor this as there were a few dayas last week that the scene did not turn on...(2 out of 7 days).

 

One thing that I did notice after carefully reviewing the logs is that the is 1 X10 event that the system picks up...never at a corresponding time as my unexplained scene triggers, however, it is linked to a KPL (in the problem scene) in an indirect way.

 

I am not familliar with how X10 programs work with KPLs so perhaps someone can enlighten me.

 

This may real like a riddle, but...

 

It appears that there is and X10 address assosicated with a togglelinc dimmer which is part of a different scene (family room lights). This scene is controlled and responds to a secondary button on the KPL which is part of the scene that I am haveing issues with (kitchen light scene).

 

This is the only connection that I can draw from the X10 event.

 

I tried to decipher the manual for X10 programming of KPLs, but still cannot understand if all individual buttons are addressable or if there is only 1 address per KPL.

 

In other words, if a togglelinc recieves an x10 command to turn on and is part of a scene (family room lights) controlled by a secondary button on a KPL, will it turn on the main load (kitchen lights) on that KPL?

 

OK my nraib is fried!!

 

Thanks in advance for any insight!

[Brian H]

Are you using any X10 devices?

If not there should be no X10 addresses programed into the modules.

We have seen new modules sometimes being shipped with Insteon and X10 factory test addresses in them that where not factory reset before shipping.

[gfridland]

Brian...

 

No, I am not using any X10 devices and actually reset all the devices in the problem scene to ensure that there are no questions. I did not reset ALL devices in my home...YET!

 

Last night, after understanding how to view the log file, I found 1 X10 command/event that I can link to a device that is not part of the problem scene, but has a KPL in common with the problem scene.

 

I will factory reset it this evening to ensure that the X10 address is erased, but am still wondering if this device can turn on a scene on the load on a common KPL even though it belongs to a secondary button scene.

 

Another point to remake is that there are no logged X10 commands in the ISY logs at the times of scene misfires (middle of night), but i suppose that if this is something that is coming through a powerline from a neighboriung house, it may be sufficiently weak to where the ISY would not see it to log it, but the target device may.

[IndyMike]

There was a problem with "early" revisions of the KPL regarding X10 All on/All off commands. If a single secondary button were programmed with an X10 address ("A1" for instance), all of the buttons (including the load) would activate in response to a HouseCode A "All on" command.

 

I am not sure whether an Insteon Scene would be initiated in response to the above.

 

IM

[gfridland]

Interesting.

 

The KPL isteslf is an earlier version...approx 3 years old. Shows up as "(2486D) Keypadlinc Dimmer v.2D" in the Java console. I did factory reset this device to eliminate the unintended X10 address possibility.

 

I did not reset the Togglelinc that appears to have an X10 assosiated with it yet as I just discovered it this morning. So the KPL should not have an x10 in it, but would be controlled to a secondary button by the togglinc. The togglelinc in questionis part of a different scene but controlled by the common KPL.

 

I don't believe that the scene associated with the togglelinc in question triggers unexpectadly.

[upstatemike]

I wonder what would happen if you added 1 togglelinc back to the scene as a responder only (so the scene still exists in the same memory location of the PLM) and then created a new scene configured with the same controllers and responders as the original? If the new scene triggers it must be caused by a device in the scene. If just the one togglelinc triggers it would point to the PLM memory location.

 

While X-10 can trigger individual modules I don'y see how it could be responsible for triggering a scene.

[gfridland]

Upstatemike,

 

At first, I thought that this may be a program/group related issue and I deleted the kitchen lights scene and recreated a new scene with the same devices. I named it differently. I assume that this would have assigned a new group number in the PLM?

 

After this, the scene still triggered.

 

At this point, I am really thinking it is a device (member of scene) that is causing this issue and not the PLM, however, I may do a PLM restore to eliminate any PLM link related issue.

[upstatemike]

I don't think deleting and recreating a scene will guarantee a new memory register in the PLM. It will probably just put the new one into the hole just created by the deletion. I suggest leaving the existing scene in the PLM without any controllers to ensure the suspect memory location is not reused. This will force the new scene to be created in a new PLM memory register.

[gfridland]

Thanks Upstatemike...I will try creating an additional scene to ensure that there is no duplication.

[gfridland]

Success???

 

Last night, no unexpected triggers of scenes or devices. Perhaps just coincidence, but the significant improvement for me was the fact that there were no recorded X10 events (I had at least 2 per night in the past) in my Log file as I do not have any X10 devices. Not sure if this is was related.

 

I factory reset the togglelink dimmer that I was able to match to the X10 event using the log file. This was the only major change that was made. This dimmer is part of a different scene than the problem one, but shares a common KPL. This dimmer is linked to a secondary button while the problem scene is on the main (load) of the same KPL.

 

Wishfull thinking?

 

I will continue to minitor this...

 

This morning, I looked at the PML links...I counted 406!!!

 

To verify that there are no mismatches, I factory reset the PLM and restored it and the link count was the same after restore.

 

Is this correct? I thought that there is 1 link per device node and 1 per scene in the PLM. I have 60 devices, including 7 KPL (8button), 1 Motion sensor, 1 IRLinc with 20 programmed codes, and 1 EZIO2x4. This doesnt add up to so many links...How do scenes play into this? I have about 30 scenes (some large, some small)

 

The reason I am concerned is that based on the 2412s documentation, 417 is max for this PLM...if this is accurate, I am getting really close to maximum.

 

How do larger installs handle this limitation? I looked at Smarthome and this is actually larger than the new 2413 dual band that replaces the 2412s.

 

This board is great...thanks to all!

[Brian H]

The documentation is wrong for the later 2412S PLM Modules.

 

The Link database is 2016. Been that way for awhile but I don't remember the exact hardware rev where it changed.

 

Yes the 2413S Dual Band is 1023 but it also does not supply power through the interface cable and an external supply is needed on the ISY99i when a 2413S is used.

 

http://www.smarthome.com/2412S/PowerLin ... ial/p.aspx

Chart near bottom 2016 is the amount.