New Home Build

[ASchubert]

Hi All

I am building a new house so I am starting to think about what I want in it.  ( Essentially full smart home )    

 

My dad has a isy994 and all insteon switches and thermostats. so that is what I was gong to go with aside from getting the new polisy pro instead of isy since insteon Just came back online.

 

But I figured I would ask around and see if there was a better option for me.  I reqally like the insteon technology and simplicity but if there is something else I should consider I would love recommendations.

 

Disclaimer:  I am a developer so can grasp concepts quickly but I have no idea about what options or technologies are in this field.

[lilyoyo1]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:45 PM, ASchubert said:

Hi All

I am building a new house so I am starting to think about what I want in it.  ( Essentially full smart home )    

 

My dad has a isy994 and all insteon switches and thermostats. so that is what I was gong to go with aside from getting the new polisy pro instead of isy since insteon Just came back online.

 

But I figured I would ask around and see if there was a better option for me.  I reqally like the insteon technology and simplicity but if there is something else I should consider I would love recommendations.

 

Disclaimer:  I am a developer so can grasp concepts quickly but I have no idea about what options or technologies are in this field.

 

https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/37824-please-provide-some-insights-on-my-home-automation-options/

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[ASchubert]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/37824-please-provide-some-insights-on-my-home-automation-options/

 

Thanks for this but im pretty much seeing that insteon is the best thing out there no?  If they really make a comeback it would be preferred to use them?

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, ASchubert said:

Thanks for this but im pretty much seeing that insteon is the best thing out there no?  If they really make a comeback it would be preferred to use them?

No. Best is relative. There are different factors involved with different systems. Is insteon better than zwave - IMO yes, but that's because insteon better meets what I'm looking for in a system. For someone else with different requirements, zwave would be a better fit. 

The best system to use is what fits your lifestyle and budget. The only way to figure that out is to try different technologies to see how they work in your home. Besides, since you can't get plms right now in addition to limited supply- insteon may not be an option. 

Personally, I'll probably never use insteon again. At least in it's current form. I definitely would never use it in a professional setting under any circumstance. However, if you feel insteon is for you, then feel free to wait and use them. Nowadays, you don't have to tie yourself to 1 technology. Use the best thing that fits your needs in the right places even if it's different stuff.

[kzboray]

For lighting, Insteon IMHO is still the best DIY solution. But for other things that you want to control Z-wave, Zigbee, or even shudder wi-fi might be a better solution. With today's advances in home automation mixing and matching is simple and effective. The Eisy or Polisy will certainly give you that flexibility to add what ever technology you need for the particular problem you are trying to solve.

Also UD Mobile has become a fantastic, top tier application and atm it's free. While I don't personally agree with an automated home that requires you to open an app and push buttons, many people want that level of control and UD Mobile is amazing.

[ASchubert]

17 minutes ago, kzboray said:

For lighting, Insteon IMHO is still the best DIY solution. But for other things that you want to control Z-wave, Zigbee, or even shudder wi-fi might be a better solution. With today's advances in home automation mixing and matching is simple and effective. The Eisy or Polisy will certainly give you that flexibility to add what ever technology you need for the particular problem you are trying to solve.

Also UD Mobile has become a fantastic, top tier application and atm it's free. While I don't personally agree with an automated home that requires you to open an app and push buttons, many people want that level of control and UD Mobile is amazing.

Yea i was thinking lighting insteon and thermostats and then zwave door locks , door bell and what not and then if there is a way to use apple homekit that would be amazing.

[Goose66]

I would try and either 1) buy switches that will be field-upgradable to Matter over Thread or 2) buy cheap/used Insteon or Zwave until Matter switches become available.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Goose66

[ASchubert]

21 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

I would try and either 1) buy switches that will be field-upgradable to Matter over Thread or 2) buy cheap/used Insteon or Zwave until Matter switches become available.

Do you know of any switches like option 1?

[matapan]

I would stick with the Insteon devices. You already have them. Presumably they work. From what I'm scanning through posts here, Z-Wave is really a transitory option until the up and coming protocol takes its place.

I've been playing with a few more Z-Wave devices and they are totally underwhelming. The device-specific settings are not visible to you in the ISY. From what I can glean from posts here, you have to write a script to get the current device settings in the form of parameters and values. Lord knows why it's not displayed in the ISY Admin UI, but I'm sure there's a technical reason why it's not there. You do have the ability to set parameters on a Z-Wave device using the Admin UI, but there's no tellng if the values have taken unless you run that query script mentioned in another post.

Z-Wave, like dual band Insteon has to have a large enough mesh of devices to function properly. You have to add new devices close to the ISY or it won't add, at least from my experience. There have to be intermediary devices physically installed in close proximity to each other for the endpoint device to communicate reliably with the controller.

Another drawback of ZWave, from what I can gather from reading posts here is the ability to set up scenes as easily as you can with Insteon. 

Finally, there doesn't seem to be a good Z-Wave option that is the equivalent of a Keypadlinc.

I used to really not like Insteon because of the troubles I had with product quality and older single band devices. My opinion has changed somewhat since I tried a setup with predominantly dual band devices. Much more reliable, but still some hiccups. Z-Wave on the other hand just looks like a cluster. Awful or generic industrial design for their switches, and the setup, at least through ISY is just not that clean. I don't know if this is just an ease of use thing with the ISY since I haven't really played with other controllers like Smartthings, Homeseer or Home Assistant. But hey, you can mix Insteon with Z-Wave Plus devices with the ISY994i. That should get you through to the next generation of Home Automation once it solidifies and becomes truly usable instead of being vaporware or alpha release products. It is after all the race to deliver products first, regardless of product quality of stability!

[ASchubert]

7 minutes ago, matapan said:

I would stick with the Insteon devices. You already have them. Presumably they work. From what I'm scanning through posts here, Z-Wave is really a transitory option until the up and coming protocol takes its place.

I've been playing with a few more Z-Wave devices and they are totally underwhelming. The device-specific settings are not visible to you in the ISY. From what I can glean from posts here, you have to write a script to get the current device settings in the form of parameters and values. Lord knows why it's not displayed in the ISY Admin UI, but I'm sure there's a technical reason why it's not there. You do have the ability to set parameters on a Z-Wave device using the Admin UI, but there's no tellng if the values have taken unless you run that query script mentioned in another post.

Z-Wave, like dual band Insteon has to have a large enough mesh of devices to function properly. You have to add new devices close to the ISY or it won't add, at least from my experience. There have to be intermediary devices physically installed in close proximity to each other for the endpoint device to communicate reliably with the controller.

Another drawback of ZWave, from what I can gather from reading posts here is the ability to set up scenes as easily as you can with Insteon. 

Finally, there doesn't seem to be a good Z-Wave option that is the equivalent of a Keypadlinc.

I used to really not like Insteon because of the troubles I had with product quality and older single band devices. My opinion has changed somewhat since I tried a setup with predominantly dual band devices. Much more reliable, but still some hiccups. Z-Wave on the other hand just looks like a cluster. Awful or generic industrial design for their switches, and the setup, at least through ISY is just not that clean. I don't know if this is just an ease of use thing with the ISY since I haven't really played with other controllers like Smartthings, Homeseer or Home Assistant. But hey, you can mix Insteon with Z-Wave Plus devices with the ISY994i. That should get you through to the next generation of Home Automation once it solidifies and becomes truly usable instead of being vaporware or alpha release products. It is after all the race to deliver products first, regardless of product quality of stability!

yea I actually have nothing at this point which is why I am open to anything.  I just am familiar with the insteon and isy

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, ASchubert said:

Do you know of any switches like option 1?

Wemo?; Eve?; there may be others.

[ASchubert]

2 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Wemo?; Eve?; there may be others.

Any benefit to one over the other? and i can do all the things like insteon with them? create 3 way switches without wiring?

 

[matapan]

I doubt there are any switches that allow you to do n-way switching as easily as Insteon. 

Since you don't have any equipment, you can just find the best deal out there and wait for the technology to catch up with respect to ease of use and configuration.

Or just go with Lutron non-consumer grade products if you can afford it. It just works.

[upstatemike]

19 minutes ago, ASchubert said:

Any benefit to one over the other? and i can do all the things like insteon with them? create 3 way switches without wiring?

 

No. Most other technologies will not provide the same experience that Insteon gives you when it comes to virtual 3-way switches. Some platforms like Caseta can provide a somewhat similiar experience using Pico remotes in place of switches but that doesn't work so well if the control location needs to control an actual load. Other platforms like Z-Wave tend to get the virtual switches, or their indicators, out of sync when you try to set up a 3-way scenario because they are designed to trigger scenes, not really to operate in virtual groups.

[ASchubert]

31 minutes ago, matapan said:

I doubt there are any switches that allow you to do n-way switching as easily as Insteon. 

Since you don't have any equipment, you can just find the best deal out there and wait for the technology to catch up with respect to ease of use and configuration.

Or just go with Lutron non-consumer grade products if you can afford it. It just works.

How expensive are we talking?  And would that require different wiring or is it still replace devices and have a polisy device for the programming?

 

[matapan]

Your local Lutron installer can give you a price on RadioRa3 equipment. I never looked into it myself as it was out of my budget. But those I know who installed it are very happy with it. No rinky dink popcorn effect with dimmers, no flickering. No sporadic issues with certain virtual switches in n way circuits not working all the time. 

You get what you pay for is what I take away from this.

[Goose66]

8 hours ago, ASchubert said:

Any benefit to one over the other? and i can do all the things like insteon with them? create 3 way switches without wiring?

Don't really have any experience with anything other than Insteon. Insteon in my last house was rock solid as a standalone system - this is its greatest strength. It was the integration with other automated devices through the ISY where I experienced problems. For example, timed programs appeared to be significantly less reliable (like 5% failure rate) than Insteon scenes with switch controllers. Now there could be any number of reasons for this: placement of PLM, weak signal from PLM, all the switches in a scene being on the same or similarly located circuits, the number and timing of commands in a program vs. a single Insteon scene manually activated, etc. - but this was my experience and that's the only feedback I have for you regarding any particular brand.

However, my response was more in the vein of what you should be "thinking about." I am in a similar situation - just moved from an old house to a new one without any automation (and all incandescent lighting ?!?) and I am considering what to install. I have a handful of Insteon devices that were removed (or never installed) in the old house, and I want to stick with the ISY/Polisy. But I didn't know what kind of devices - specifically light switches - I wanted to go with in my new house. So after researching what's available and pricing, I decided to use my limited inventory of Insteon (maybe substituting with some used purchases) to get the critical infrastructure going and keep an eye out for Matter or Matter-capable devices before I do a whole-house installation. Couple that with the new ZWave/Zigbee/Matter(Thread) board from UDI and I will be in business.

Since you are building a new house, you may have more time to wait than me. I think you will see new products and new announcements every month at this point, so you may want to just keep your eye out and wait to see what happens.

Just one man's opinion.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Goose66

[smokegrub]

A thought. Incorporating different technologies invariably increases the complexity of the system. As for me, I hope Insteon not only returns but adds offerings, such as solid door locks and PLM. I want 6 door locks. ZWave is a solid option but it requires a mesh network of ZWave devices for communication. My ISY network exists, its rock solid and handles communications at least 50 feet distant from the other Insteon devices. Bring it on, Smarthome!

[matapan]

To completely answer your previous question, Lutron offers a retrofit solution called RadioRa3 which works well. No wires to add. Lutron products are well engineered and TESTED, which is why it costs a lot more than products from startups or entities evolving from the personal computing space. 

If you don't want to pay for Lutron, then it's really a matter of finding a technology stack that has either a curated cookbook solution for you that handles your use cases well, or finding a solution which you feel comfortable customizing yourself. Your needs may be as simple as running a phone app to turn Wifi controlled lights on and off, in which case there are gobs and gobs of consumer grade products that handle this on the market. Insteon is great with scene control and the ISY is great for conditional evaluation for triggering events. Z-Wave is great if you have the need for door locks, but scenes are apparently a pain and you have to have a lot of devices on the network to be reliable. My personal experience with Z-Wave is that it's slow. From the time an event is triggered using a Z-Wave motion sensor to the time a Z-Wave appliance module is triggered is noticably slower than the same done with Insteon devices. The UI for configuring and displaying device parameters for Z-Wave is horrible in my opinion in the ISY Admin UI. It's probably usable once you figure it out, but there's definitely a learning curve.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, smokegrub said:

A thought. Incorporating different technologies invariably increases the complexity of the system. As for me, I hope Insteon not only returns but adds offerings, such as solid door locks and PLM. I want 6 door locks. ZWave is a solid option but it requires a mesh network of ZWave devices for communication. My ISY network exists, its rock solid and handles communications at least 50 feet distant from the other Insteon devices. Bring it on, Smarthome!

Increased complexity depends on what a person uses. There's no difference with insteon and zwave except for learning the nuances of both systems. Once you know that, there's no difference in overall use (not talking about performance differences).

Because the Isy natively supports both, any troubleshooting comes down to basically the same thing. Poor mesh network, poor programming, user error, bad device, or local interference. 

Things can be more complicated from a troubleshooting viewpoint with network based devices since more variables can come into play. Even then, as you learn more about your devices, troubleshooting can become easier. 

Integration with other controllers (such as HA) can add to the complexity as well but once again- only if something goes wrong (and initial setup due to learning curve).

On the Isy side of things, there is no difference with using different devices since the programming remains the same across the board. 

Both insteon and zave requires a strong mesh. The good thing is that it doesn't take slot to build and strengthen either network. Depending on the location of your Isy and end device, this could be 1 or 2 devices (I always add extra just in case). 

Edited October 13, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, matapan said:

To completely answer your previous question, Lutron offers a retrofit solution called RadioRa3 which works well. No wires to add. Lutron products are well engineered and TESTED, which is why it costs a lot more than products from startups or entities evolving from the personal computing space. 

If you don't want to pay for Lutron, then it's really a matter of finding a technology stack that has either a curated cookbook solution for you that handles your use cases well, or finding a solution which you feel comfortable customizing yourself. Your needs may be as simple as running a phone app to turn Wifi controlled lights on and off, in which case there are gobs and gobs of consumer grade products that handle this on the market. Insteon is great with scene control and the ISY is great for conditional evaluation for triggering events. Z-Wave is great if you have the need for door locks, but scenes are apparently a pain and you have to have a lot of devices on the network to be reliable. My personal experience with Z-Wave is that it's slow. From the time an event is triggered using a Z-Wave motion sensor to the time a Z-Wave appliance module is triggered is noticably slower than the same done with Insteon devices. The UI for configuring and displaying device parameters for Z-Wave is horrible in my opinion in the ISY Admin UI. It's probably usable once you figure it out, but there's definitely a learning curve.

Since the op wants to use polish/Isy, Ra3 doesn't matter since it's not supported.

That may possibly change in the future but its a nonstarter at this point. By itself, you lose too much by using it as a standalone system.

Lutron caseta works with the Isy via Node server but there are still limitations with the devices themselves which can impact the system design. 

[ASchubert]

29 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Since the op wants to use polish/Isy, Ra3 doesn't matter since it's not supported.

That may possibly change in the future but its a nonstarter at this point. By itself, you lose too much by using it as a standalone system.

Lutron caseta works with the Isy via Node server but there are still limitations with the devices themselves which can impact the system design. 

I am not necessarily married to the isy if I can get everything I want out of a standalone system like lutron i might do that.

 

[smokegrub]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Increased complexity depends on what a person uses. There's no difference with insteon and zwave except for learning the nuances of both systems. Once you know that, there's no difference in overall use (not talking about performance differences).

Because the Isy natively supports both, any troubleshooting comes down to basically the same thing. Poor mesh network, poor programming, user error, bad device, or local interference. 

Things can be more complicated from a troubleshooting viewpoint with network based devices since more variables can come into play. Even then, as you learn more about your devices, troubleshooting can become easier. 

Integration with other controllers (such as HA) can add to the complexity as well but once again- only if something goes wrong (and initial setup due to learning curve).

On the Isy side of things, there is no difference with using different devices since the programming remains the same across the board. 

Both insteon and zave requires a strong mesh. The good thing is that it doesn't take slot to build and strengthen either network. Depending on the location of your Isy and end device, this could be 1 or 2 devices (I always add extra just in case). 

I feel I may not have represented my point well. Doubling technologies at the very least doubles complexity to the user.

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, smokegrub said:

I feel I may not have represented my point well. Doubling technologies at the very least doubles complexity to the user.

I understood your point. Just saying the way things are, it doesn't or doesn't have to. 

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, ASchubert said:

I am not necessarily married to the isy if I can get everything I want out of a standalone system like lutron i might do that.

 

That depends on your needs. Lutron by itself is a glorified remote controlled system. You won't get much more than standard timers. 

The hard part with Ra3 is getting the equipment you need. Training is free which gets you access to the software. Buying the devices otoh can be more difficult. You may find a dealer willing to sell you the devices (though still wouldn't be cheap). You may find an online store willing to sell them as well. 

You could use lutron homeworks but that's a dealer installed option so you wouldn't be able to manage it yourself. If cost is not an issue then that may be something to look at.