Looking for Filtering Recommendations

[justin.cool]

I have an all Insteon network. About 8 KPLs, 60 devices, inlcuding trigger lincs, thermostats lincs, and remotelincs, and an ISY-99. I have signalinc's (the passive type) installed at both breaker boxes. I also have 4 access points in place.

 

Thanks to some great info in this forum I have been able to troubleshoot my system reliability issues to communications, and generally, to the list of devices below.

 

Communication Issues:

 

- Unreliable scenes, some number of lights in the scene don't come on one time, but come on the next time the scene is activated. The next time it will be a different light that won't come on.

- ISY-99 randomly loses ability to communicate with some devices.

 

I have now isolated the vast majority of my communication issues to a number of noisy devices and / or signal suckers:

 

1. CFLs - lots of CFLs!

2. Plug in transformers / chargers for phones, dust buster, small electronic devices

3. An old refrigerator

4. Old fashion Flourescent lights

5. New washer / dryer

 

I now need to make a pretty sizable investment in filters to rid my system of these problems. However, Smarthome's catalog is a bit less than clear about just when to use a particular filter. I have read up on the amp ratings and know to take that into account, particularly for devices like refrigerators. But my main concern is that some appear to be better than others, according to some of the info in this forum. In addition, I need to buy so many, probably 25 or more, I was hoping to find a cheaper source. And last but not least, any filter that is readily visible to my better half will NOT be allowed. So for example, are there any filters that can be installed in the outlet box, and thus not visible? I didn't see any in the smarthome catalog.

 

Can anyone point me to any discount sources? And of course, any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

v/r

[TJF1960]

Hi justin.cool

 

While I do not have quite the experience others on this forum, I have used the X10 model XPPF plug in filters which handle only 5 amps, but do the job. While they are tuned to around 120 kHz, not 131 kHz for Insteon, it seems to be close enough. I have had good luck with them. The best part is you can find them on ebay for about $5.00 or so a piece, brand new. As far as the “wife acceptance factor†luckily most of the ones I have used are hidden behind an appliance or furniture so it hasn’t been an issue (I have used an extension cord when necessary).

 

X10 also makes a 20 amp wire in module, model XPF, but the housing is pretty good size (going by memory about 5†x 3†x1.5â€) however I haven’t used one yet but I would guess the effectiveness would be equivalent to the plug in module. As I recall these were pretty cheap as well.

 

Good Luck!

Tim

[Brian H]

I would be very cautious with the XPPF. We have seen reports of them overheating if you try to go too close to the 5 amp rating. I tested one with about a 4.2 amp resistive load and it overheated and the internal coils started to melt.

 

I have used the Smarthome 5 and 10 amp FilterLincs with success. ACT makes a 15 amp filter that should work AF120.

 

Yes the XPF is a very large wire in filter, but it is 20 amps.

 

If you use some generic line filters that some electronics distributors sell. Many absorb both X10 and Insteon power line signals as noise.

 

Is the Dryer Electric or Gas? If it is electric you maybe able to filter the controls as finding a filter that can handle the heaters current would be a challenge.

[justin.cool]

Thanks for the input. The $5.00 price sounds very good, particularly since most of my noise issues are with CFL's and old fashioned flourescents.

 

The dryer is electric, unfortunately.

 

Thanks for the input, this is exactly what I was looking for!

[IndyMike]

Hi Justin,

 

Given the constraint of "no plug-in filters" you have a difficult job facing you. There are large "whole circuit" filters available like the XPF that Brian mentioned. Since this would need to be installed near the panel, it would prevent X10/Insteon communication on the entire circuit. If you could dedicate a circuit for your chargeable devices (not very convenient) this could work.

 

Short of the XPF, the only dedicated wire-in filter that I know of is the Leviton 6287 and 6289. If you have room in the J-Box, and have a lighting load that is below 5 amps, I'd recommend the 6287. When considering the load - look at the maximum load than can be applied to the circuit. Never use this device on a controlled outlet since the outlet rating is typically 15 amps (you can't control what is plugged in). Likewise, when calculating lighting loads consider the max conceivable load (i.e. if you have CFLs installed, consider the max load with incandescent).

 

If your load is above 5 amps you could try the 6289 filter. These are generally not as effective as the 6287, but do not have a current limit (they wire across the output of the switch and don't consume current).

 

Prior to embarking on a filtering excursion, I'd suggest a number of simple tests. Since the effects of noise are many time cumulative, you may find that a couple of correctly placed filters (or replaced devices) will solve your problems:

 

1. CFLs - lots of CFLs!

 

1) Try some scene tests (ISY diagnostic) with your CFL's in both the on and off condition. If your tests fail with the CFL's on and pass when they are off you definitely have issues with them.

2) If you are using dimmable CFLs, try the above with all the units set to 100%. Dimmable CFLs typically generate more noise at low levels.

3) If your CFLs are a problem, consider changing manufacturers. The cost of filtering may exceed the cost of the CFL.

 

2. Plug in transformers / chargers for phones, dust buster, small electronic devices

 

These are particularly nasty in that the noise varies wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer, and they are mobile (they move around in your house). If you can't dedicate a filtered "charging area" you'll need to characterize each device to determine which is a problem.

3. An old refrigerator

To be honest, I doubt this is a problem. Motors typically don't generate noise frequencies that interfere with Insteon (unless they are brushless DC motors with a switched interface - refrigerators won't have this). New refrigerators can be a problem because they use electronic controllers. It's the power switching to the controller or EMC filter that causes problems, not the motor.

4. Old fashion Flourescent lights

If these have magnetic balasts, they're not typically a problem. If they use electronic balasts, problems vary by manufacturer (particularly if you are switching them with Insteon).

5. New washer / dryer

Like the fridge, the electronic controls can pose a problem not the motor. I have a Kenmore front load washer / gas dryer on a dedicated circuit and have not noticed problems. If your circuit is shared, it could present problems for Insteon devices on that circuit. If your dryer is electric it's an unlikely culprit. The 240V line to an electric dryer is dedicated to the unit. Any noise/signal absorption is attenuated over the length of the circuit back to the breaker panel.

 

I now need to make a pretty sizable investment in filters to rid my system of these problems. However, Smarthome's catalog is a bit less than clear about just when to use a particular filter. I have read up on the amp ratings and know to take that into account, particularly for devices like refrigerators. But my main concern is that some appear to be better than others, according to some of the info in this forum. In addition, I need to buy so many, probably 25 or more, I was hoping to find a cheaper source. And last but not least, any filter that is readily visible to my better half will NOT be allowed. So for example, are there any filters that can be installed in the outlet box, and thus not visible? I didn't see any in the smarthome catalog.

 

1) Smarthome does carry both the Leviton 6287 and 6289.

2) I would not consider 25 filters a solution ($400). If you can't isolate the true problem devices through the techniques above, consider a tester. Jeff Volp has developed a noise tester (XTBM) for X10 that should work equally well for Insteon. At $129 + $10 shipping, I would be it would save you money (and hair) in the long run. I believe Brian H has one of these and can probably relate details of it's usefulness.

 

Jeff's webpage is located here: http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm

 

A couple of last notes:

1) Noticed that you were using an Insteon thermostat. I haven't kept up to date, but remember posts about these transmitting at regular intervals. Check to make sure this device isn't part of your problem.

2) GFCI circuits - devices installed downstream of GFCI outlets will suffer from signal absorption (kitchen, basement, garage). The amount of signal absorption varies by manufacturer and with the current load on the circuit (0 current flow/low absorption)

 

IM

[stevehoyt]

I will try to make this short, but have recently spent over 6 weeks trying to resolve Insteon communication issues exactly the same as yours. If you care to contact me let me know and I can give you more details. A lot of the credit in solving these problems goes to the forum messages, Michel at ISY and Steve at smarthome.

 

My point in replying is to let you know that I have gone from a totally unreliable network to one that is now working 99% of the time and have used no filters.

 

I have a large 40 year OLD house with 75 circuit breakers in 3 sub panels spread over 200 feet and about 30 Insteon devices of all flavors. I have roughly 80 CFL's in almost every light, halogen lights, low voltage transformers, 2 fridges, a 25 year old freezer and many modern devices cell phone chargers portable phones WIFI, 900 MZ wireless speakers, 5 TV's and cable boxes....it goes on and on.

 

In summary my problems were caused by, in order of seriousness

 

1) V.35 switchlincs

2) One set of lights that has halogen lights on low voltage transformers. I could use a filter here but can not get inside the wall, so have just taken this light out of all scenes. This was a major cause of scene failures.

3)Incorrect placement of Access points. Even though I had them across phases I had to move them closer together. I now have/need a total of 8 APs

4) Getting rid of my Signalincs

5) Bad grounds on a few circuits

6)Minor issues with the state of devices versus what ISY thought was the state. Corrected by doing restores mostly.

7) And of course some ignorance or hope that all would work "out of the box"