PLM replacement trouble

[MrBill]

12 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

1. I can’t imagine how, but could there be any issue with MobiLincX somehow interfering with proper new addressing of PLM?

I can't imagine how either.

13 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

2.  Should I first delete PLM from ISY and factory reset PLM? 

If you Delete PLM you will literally be starting from scratch.  Ground zero, nothing to restore anymore.  At that point i would factory reset each device as you re-add them to the ISY.   This action is non-reversible (with the exception of restoring a backup should work).

You can factory reset a PLM, then "Restore Modem".

10 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

3. does it make any difference if I work in admin console in LAN vs Cloud?

Yes and no.  Cloud works but it will be faster if you do it on the local LAN.

11 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

4. Should I continue to have the event viewer writing files, or change that setting (currently still set at level 3)?

Event Viewer is a Viewer, it doesn't write any files.  If I didn't understand the question then please restate.

[MarcusD]

Have the morning and an empty house.

I tried moving the PLM to a different outlet (longer new cat5 patch cable).  Did the power up sequence correctly.  Got the safe mode notice.  Tried the power up sequence again, same safe mode.  I returned it to the original outlet and cable and at least the PLM was found.

 

Tried to restore the first device in the list that had the green IOII (keypad kitchen). During that process, got the same communication error messages for many of the other devices.  At the end of the process, that device has a red explanation point icon.

When you say, start at the top, do you mean actually start with the first device in the ISY list even if it is functional?

 

I tried to re-link a dual band dimmer that has communication problems.  I had deleted that device from the system.  I put switch in linking mode, it found the node address, and after selecting Finish, it returned a New Device Error:  Cannot determine device link table.  Then another 10 minutes waiting for the writing process to complete.

 

If the problem is that it still has a competing address for the old PLM, is there some other way to remove that?  I’m not clear on what restoring a backup does not restore after deleting a PLM. Does the backup also contain the original (corrupted, competing) addresses for the PLM?  At this point, is there any reason to try factory restore of the PLM?  I feel like I don't have a systematic approach to troubleshooting this....

 

If I was sure it would work, starting over seems easier than this process….

 

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, MarcusD said:

Tried to restore the first device in the list that had the green IOII (keypad kitchen). During that process, got the same communication error messages for many of the other devices.  At the end of the process, that device has a red explanation point icon.

When you say, start at the top, do you mean actually start with the first device in the ISY list even if it is functional?

Turn off the far right two buttons on the admin console ribbon. ---> .  this will make it so that only the device in the tree that you have selected will be written to.  By default if the ISY is going to write it writes to all devices that have something in the queue.

1 hour ago, MarcusD said:

I tried to re-link a dual band dimmer that has communication problems.  I had deleted that device from the system.  I put switch in linking mode, it found the node address, and after selecting Finish, it returned a New Device Error:  Cannot determine device link table.  Then another 10 minutes waiting for the writing process to complete.

 

If the problem is that it still has a competing address for the old PLM, is there some other way to remove that?  I’m not clear on what restoring a backup does not restore after deleting a PLM. Does the backup also contain the original (corrupted, competing) addresses for the PLM?  At this point, is there any reason to try factory restore of the PLM?  I feel like I don't have a systematic approach to troubleshooting this....

I'm not sure what you've got going on here.  I've read those two paragraphs a dozen times and i'm just not getting it.  I will say tho that if you delete the device from the ISY you should also factory reset the device before adding it back.

[MarcusD]

I do't see that icon on the admin ribbon

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, MarcusD said:

I do't see that icon on the admin ribbon

you have non "plus" firmware,  it doesn't exist.   that's a soft upgrade, if it's still available it's pay the money and the feature unlocks next time you start the admin console.   Sadly it's included in polisy and eisy.  Plus adds to the total number of nodes and programs, as well as give you those two buttons.

[MarcusD]

I don’t suppose changing to eisy would make my current mess any easier to fix (aside from unlocking the independent restore)?  I would guess it will Get me additional headaches.  But if it’s advisable to do at this point….

otherwise, I’ll look Into firmware upgrade and see if it’s available….

[Techman]

@MarcusD

Support for the ISY994 ended on 6/1/2023. You can no longer add modules to the ISY.

Your only option is to move up to the eisy.

[IndyMike]

11 hours ago, MarcusD said:

I don’t suppose changing to eisy would make my current mess any easier to fix (aside from unlocking the independent restore)?  I would guess it will Get me additional headaches.  But if it’s advisable to do at this point….

otherwise, I’ll look Into firmware upgrade and see if it’s available….

Hello MarcusD,

At this point I would NOT recommend switching to the Eisy/Polisy.  It would further confuse things.  You appear to have some basic communication issues with your system of the PLM.  These will still exist with the Eisy/Polisy.

Your previous post included the event viewer results from a "write updates" and "device restore" session.  I didn't see any communication errors in either of those logs.  You are apparently getting them now.  Starting to wonder whether you have somehow lost your phase bridging.

Questions:

1. You mentioned that you had gotten a "new" 2413S.  Is it really new or rebuilt?  Can you post the version/firmware and date code?  Trying to make sure that it's really a dual band PLM ( there were older 2413's that were not dual band).
2. Is it possible that you had a power event that may have damaged some of your devices?  This could affect your bridging and mesh.

Mr. Bill determined that you don't have the ability to "turn off" device updates  - that's unfortunate.  What you CAN do, is disable devices so you are only working with one at a time.  This will limit the confusing ISY update action in the event viewer. 

A few recommendations:

1. I would suggest that you disable all devices with "pending writes" and "errors". 
2. Select one device to restore.  Enable that device, and restore with the Event Viewer on level 3.   Post the event viewer contents here.
3. If you continue to have issues with communications, try updating Lamplincs/ApplianceLincs by plugging them in next to the PLM.  Always use the device restore.

 

 

[MrBill]

@MarcusD My take at the moment is just start over.   Get your eisy up to date and connected with a new PLM or newly factory reset PLM.  once it's working, factory reset every device one by one and add them to the new installation.  This thread is 6 days old, spinning wheels any longer is just nuts... you can be done with it in another few days.

[Brian H]

All the 2413S PLM units are Dual Band. Even my V1.0 that needed fly wire changes to the power supply to even be sold.

The 2412S was the power line only serial PLM.

[IndyMike]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

All the 2413S PLM units are Dual Band. Even my V1.0 that needed fly wire changes to the power supply to even be sold.

The 2412S was the power line only serial PLM.

You are of course correct Brian.  I could have sworn that my V1.0 2413S was powerline only.  I was wrong.  I was thinking about my 2412S.

 

Sorry to confuse...

[MarcusD]

Thanks IndyMIke.  The new PLM was just purchased from Insteon.  Revision 2.6 1123

I disabled everything with pending writes and errors.  Activated one device (keypadSliderMain) and tried to restore.  Got a connection error.  The log file (event viewer 3) is attached.

Mr Bill-- I would start over if I was confident that it would work.  Not clear where all these communication errors are suddenly coming from and if they would resolve by starting from scratch. Very frustrating.

 

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Thu 2023.08.10 11.51.03 AM.txt

[MarcusD]

I factory reset a dual band dimmer switch and tried to link. Got an error (failed to link--reason 9).  The log file is attached.

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Thu 2023.08.10 12.09.02 PM.txt

[IndyMike]

Hello Marcus,

You are absolutely having communication issues.  Your KPL appeared to accept writes properly, but then failed to respond to tree successive retries from the ISY.  What I find ODD is that your retries (no response from KPL) is followed by a good response in terms of HOPs.

The below shows a timeout followed by a very good response (2 HOPS left).  It's almost as if the KPL doesn't hear the PLM periodically.  When it does hear the PLM, it responds well.

Check to see if there are signal absorbers plugged in near your PLM.  Unplug or filter if you find any.  I know you tried moving your PLM once already, consider trying again with a shorter cable.

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:37 AM : [INST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 40 FA 88 1F 2E 00 01 05 1F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 AD

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:37 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 40.FA.88 1F 2E 00 01 05 1F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 AD 06        (00)

###########@   Timeout - Should be a [INST- SRX ] here    #########

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:46 AM : [INST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 40 FA 88 1F 2E 00 01 05 1F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 AD

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:46 AM : [INST-ACK    ] 02 62 40.FA.88 1F 2E 00 01 05 1F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 AD 06        (00)

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:48 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 40.FA.88 70.16.CE 2B 2E 00           (00)

Thu 08/10/2023 11:48:48 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 40.FA.88-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Your second device also failed to respond after 3 retries.  It was far worse and did not accept any data.

Have a look at your Insteon Messaging Settings under "Link Management\Advanced Options".  Let us know what your current setting are.

Consider using moving a plug in device (lamplinc/appliancelinc) next to the PLM and restoring that.  Trying to figure out if you have a problem with your new PLM, your installed electrical circuit, our your phase coupling.

 

 

[IndyMike]

Hello again Marcus,

I wanted to show you what is going on in your system. I found a V.45 switchlinc dimmer in my stock - identical to the one you tried to link.  I factory reset it, and then linked it to my ISY/PLM

In the graphic below, your device log is on the left/ mine is on the right.  The normal sequence of communication is :

1. [INST-TX-I1] (or I2): ISY communicating to the PLM
2. [INST-ACK]: PLM acknowledging the ISY command
3. [INST-SRX]: Target device responding to command (switchlinc dimmer).

The RED highlighted sections below are instances where the ISY did not receive a response from the Switchlinc (4 total).  The ISY will re-send the information until it gets 3 no-responses.  In the case of your Switchlinc, 3 ISY got 3 consecutive no-responses and declared a fault.

What is curious is that when the device DID response, it showed 3 HOPS remaining.  It doesn't get any better than that.   The device appears to be having problems "hearing" the PLM.  When it responds, the communication is excellent. 

Your KPL showed similar issues.  Numerous no-reponses, but good HOP levels when it did reply. 

This is why I am asking about signal absorbers, phase coupling, or other changes to your system. 

[MarcusD]

Thanks so much for the effort here.  I only have a number of GE SUrgeProg (THQLSURGE) installed in my electrical panels and sub panels.  This has been in place for a year prior to the communication errors.  The advanced link setting is on automatic. I don't have any other signal absorbers (that I know of).  And I don't know anything about phase coupling to answer that question.  Really no other changes.

I do have encouraging news:  I moved the PLM to a different outlet that was near enough not to have to replace the cat5 cables with longer ones (when I tried that before, the ISY started in safe mode so I had given up on that).  This time, I was able to link the dimmer switch!  I attached the log file.  But hopefully, simply moving the outlet will solve it all--I''ll let you know!  It is so odd that I did not change anything (except replace the old PLM) and so a bit perplexing why I would have suddenly gotten interference on the original outlet. Really nothing new was added to that outlet. I'll start adding the list of disabled devices--hopefully, smooth sailing from here!!

 

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Fri 2023.08.11 04.06.51 PM.txt

[MarcusD]

So, better (I restored a few and was encouraged), but still can't restore several devices.  I enabled the garage light, tried to restore.  Looks like an error.  I then tried to write updates to device (it didn't have explanation point after the restore, it had the green ioii).  Didn't work.  I attached that log file.  I'll delete it and factory reset that switch and see if that helps.

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Fri 2023.08.11 04.35.51 PM.txt

[IndyMike]

47 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

Thanks so much for the effort here.  I only have a number of GE SUrgeProg (THQLSURGE) installed in my electrical panels and sub panels.  This has been in place for a year prior to the communication errors.  The advanced link setting is on automatic. I don't have any other signal absorbers (that I know of).  And I don't know anything about phase coupling to answer that question.  Really no other changes.

I do have encouraging news:  I moved the PLM to a different outlet that was near enough not to have to replace the cat5 cables with longer ones (when I tried that before, the ISY started in safe mode so I had given up on that).  This time, I was able to link the dimmer switch!  I attached the log file.  But hopefully, simply moving the outlet will solve it all--I''ll let you know!  It is so odd that I did not change anything (except replace the old PLM) and so a bit perplexing why I would have suddenly gotten interference on the original outlet. Really nothing new was added to that outlet. I'll start adding the list of disabled devices--hopefully, smooth sailing from here!!

 

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Fri 2023.08.11 04.06.51 PM.txt 43.93 kB · 2 downloads

The Log above shows that you successfully linked device @ address 41.AC.90 (Switchlinc dimmer?).

It also shows that your wrote the updates to the Switchlinc dimmer @40.FA.88 (previous device you were writing to).  That sounds like a big success. 

That would indicate that your original PLM location is suspect (noise/absorbers)

[Techman]

@MarcusD

To verify that the two legs of your powerline are properly bridged (coupled) use the 4 tap test as outlined in the 2 page attached document.

This test will work with almost all the newer, dual band, devices.

4 Tap test.pdf

[IndyMike]

14 hours ago, MarcusD said:

So, better (I restored a few and was encouraged), but still can't restore several devices.  I enabled the garage light, tried to restore.  Looks like an error.  I then tried to write updates to device (it didn't have explanation point after the restore, it had the green ioii).  Didn't work.  I attached that log file.  I'll delete it and factory reset that switch and see if that helps.

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Fri 2023.08.11 04.35.51 PM.txt 8.8 kB · 1 download

Your garage light is going to be problematic.  It essentially has poor communication in both directions. 

What is puzzling is the fact that all of the Dimmers you've listed so far are V.45 dual band devices.  If there are were problems with noise of absorption on your powerline, the PLM should communicate through RF.

Techman's suggestion of the 4-tap test is an excellent one.  If will tell you which devices are on the same phase as the PLM (flashing red) and the opposite phase (flashing green). 

I would infer that a device that doesn't flash at all (steady green) either does not support the test or is not communicating. 

[MarcusD]

Do I need at least 2 range extenders to do this 4-tap test?  I have an access point #2443 (V2.6) that looks like is dead--no LED light comes on when I press the set button.  I entered the address in LInk Managemet:New Insteon Device to see if if would be recognized, and it wasn't found.  I also have a range extender (2992-222 R3.7 3515) that was in the basement and appears to be working (LED light is on, though I don't see it in the device list...)..  I don't have any lamplinc devices.  I moved the range extender to an outlet near a device that I was still not able to restore (a bathroom fan coupled to a dual-band on/off switch)--and now it restored (log file attached).  Odd as there are many dual band band dimmers nearby, so I would have thought the range extender would not be needed.  I then moved the range extender into the garage and tried to restore the garage light again--this didn't work (log file for this also attached).   

ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Sat 2023.08.12 08.44.13 AM.txt ISY-Events-Log.v5.3.4__Sat 2023.08.12 08.49.25 AM.txt

[IndyMike]

Marcus,

Your garage fan restored, but it is marginal.  There were numerous ISY retries during the restore process.  This device will not be reliable in Scenes (the ISY does not check status/retry communications in scenes).

Your garage device made it further than it had previously.  There were a number of retries.  Can't tell why it failed as it's only a partial log.

The fact that your Accesspoint died may be the smoking gun we were looking for.  Try moving the range extender to it's location.  It does not need to be linked to repeat signals.

The Range extender will operate the "4-tap test" by itself.  Tap it 4 times (quickly) and it will start beeping and sending out signals:

1) Devices on the same phase will flash red (including your v.45 dimmers)

2) Device on the opposite phase will flash green.

3) No flashing indicates no signal reception or does not support the test.  Investigate the devices that don't flash to determine their firmware level.  We should be able to determine whether they support the test or not.

You can actually run the 4-tap test from any enabled device (as Techman indicated above).  This includes your PLM and your 2477D Dimmers.  The dimmers can be a bit tricky to activate since you need to push the set button 4 times quickly.  I was able to do this on a dimmer after removing the front plate. 

[MarcusD]

Cool.  I tried the range extender plugged in the garage.  Approximately half of the devices flashed red (in the kitchen and garage), and half flashed green.  I presume that's not ideal...

The fan is actually in an upstairs bathroom.  I have it in a scene to shut off after 20 minutes, so that one is key to have reliable communication.

BTW, that was the full log for the garage device restore.  It just stopped, without any popup error.  I tried it twice, same thing.

Edited August 12, 2023 by MarcusD
answered my own question

[MarcusD]

Found another access point that seems dead (I had one on each floor).  So, I presume the problem is related to no longer having the multiple functional range extenders bridging the two phases.  Is Insteon no longer offering range extenders?  Any options?  Worth purchasing a few lamplinc devices to see if that helps?  

Edited August 12, 2023 by MarcusD
more specific question

[IndyMike]

22 minutes ago, MarcusD said:

Cool.  I tried the range extender plugged in the garage.  Approximately half of the devices flashed red (in the kitchen and garage), and half flashed green.  I presume that's not ideal...

The fan is actually in an upstairs bathroom.  I have it in a scene to shut off after 20 minutes, so that one is key to have reliable communication.

BTW, that was the full log for the garage device restore.  It just stopped, without any popup error.  I tried it twice, same thing.

Actually, half red/ half green is ideal.  You are communicating across both phases with the range extender in that location. 

Is that the location where your failed AccessPoint was? 

Do you see any correlation between Red flashing or Green Flashing devices with devices that you can't restore?  If all of your problem devices are on one phase that would give us a direction to pursue.

You could remove your range extender and run the 4-tap test on your PLM.  If devices in your garage don't flash (or only flash red or green) it would be another indication that your PLM signal isn't making it there.