DwayneA Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) Hello all. [Disclaimer of competence: I admit to not being an ISY or Insteon guru. I've cobbled together a number of devices including an ISY994 that has successfully automated lighting in my home for over ten years.] I have an Insteon 2450 IOLinc module controlling and monitoring the garage overhead door. It appears the 2450 has stopped reporting sensor status to the ISY and other linked modules. I confirmed the sensor is working and the LED on the 2450 correctly displays sensor status. The dry contact output to operate the garage door is working properly. All within the UD Admin Console: I see the status of the sensor is frozen to "On" regardless of actual sensor status including the 2450 sensor LED. When I right-click the sensor and choose Diagnostics/Show Device Links Table an error is returned - see attached image. If I right-click on any other correctly functioning module and choose the same table a list of linked modules is generated. Question for the ISY-All-Wise: is the error an indicator that the 2450 module has failed? Should I simply replace the module? Can further troubleshooting identify the issue? (I did try unplugging and re-plugging the 2450 module but that had no positive effect.) Thank you in advance for any and all responses. Dwayne A Sherwood Park, AB, Canada Edited January 14 by DwayneA content clarification
Solution IndyMike Posted January 14 Solution Posted January 14 Sounds more like a communication issue. Garages can be very problematic with all the devices that are plugged into outlets (chargers, etc). Since the 2450 is a plug-in device, try moving it closer to your PLM to check communication. If it works, you need to look for signal absorbers/noise generators on the garage circuit. 2
Techman Posted January 15 Posted January 15 The IOLinc is a single band device (no RF) and as @IndyMike mentioned, it is susceptible to powerline interference. If you have a dual band plug-in device, try plugging it into the front of the IOLinc. If that doesn't help then try doing a factory reset / restore device on the IOLinc. 1
DwayneA Posted January 15 Author Posted January 15 1 hour ago, IndyMike said: Sounds more like a communication issue. Garages can be very problematic with all the devices that are plugged into outlets (chargers, etc). Since the 2450 is a plug-in device, try moving it closer to your PLM to check communication. If it works, you need to look for signal absorbers/noise generators on the garage circuit. Hey @IndyMike It appears that was the problem. ✔️ I temporarily moved the IOLinc to the receptacle beside the PLM and ISY and it worked just fine. So, I moved it back to the garage AND unplugged the battery chargers on the summer cars and it worked just as intended once again. 😄 This is frustrating as the cars have been sitting on chargers since Halloween and every winter for the last several years, with no interference to the IOLinc. Now this week the IOLinc has a case of the Jr. High School Princess Sensitives. 😠 47 minutes ago, Techman said: The IOLinc is a single band device (no RF) and as @IndyMike mentioned, it is susceptible to powerline interference. If you have a dual band plug-in device, try plugging it into the front of the IOLinc. If that doesn't help then try doing a factory reset / restore device on the IOLinc. @Techman I have a 2443 Access Point plugged in nearby. Would that provide dual-band redundancy if I plugged it into the front of the IOLinc? Thanks both for your replies and insights. Dwayne A
Brian H Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) If the 2443 Access Point is on the same circuit. It may not matter too much but in the pass through outlet it would definitely help. The former Smarthome recommended a Access Point in the front outlet. For better results as the I/OLinc is a power line only device. One thing to check. On the back of the Access Point look at the revision number. If it is any V2 revision. They are built on the same main board as our 2413S PLM. Subject to the same capacitor issues we see in the 2413S. Chargers and some garage door opener models are known for power line communications issues. Though depends on the charger or opener itself. Edited January 15 by Brian H correct a statement
IndyMike Posted January 15 Posted January 15 @DwayneA, Both your 2450 and 2443's will flash their LED's on Insteon traffic. If you have Mobilinc you should be able to activate the 2450 remotely and watch for traffic on the LED's. This may help to isolate the problem further. 14 hours ago, DwayneA said: I have an Insteon 2450 IOLinc module controlling and monitoring the garage overhead door. It appears the 2450 has stopped reporting sensor status to the ISY and other linked modules. Just noticed that you indicated that the 2450 is also CONTROLLING your garage door. Sorry, but I think that's a very bad idea. The 2450 is not the most reliable module. It's totally devoid of security, and it's susceptible to All-on/All-off communications. I understand to desire to monitor your garage door status, but please re-think controlling it with the 2450.
IndyMike Posted January 15 Posted January 15 13 hours ago, DwayneA said: I temporarily moved the IOLinc to the receptacle beside the PLM and ISY and it worked just fine. So, I moved it back to the garage AND unplugged the battery chargers on the summer cars and it worked just as intended once again. 😄 This is frustrating as the cars have been sitting on chargers since Halloween and every winter for the last several years, with no interference to the IOLinc. Now this week the IOLinc has a case of the Jr. High School Princess Sensitives. Sorry, I completely missed this post. It sounds like your chargers may have large EMI caps installed. These are rather effective at absorbing Insteon signals. It's probably not just the chargers absorbing things. All devices installed on the circuit (and near the PLM) can contribute to noise and absorption. Unplugging one device may re-establish signal levels and look like a smoking gun. In actuality, what normally happens is you have improved signal levels just enough to allow things to operate (barely acceptable signal to noise ratio). Unfortunately good, easy tools for Insteon don't really exist. The best commonly available method I know of to assess communication is by removing and/or filtering loads and then monitoring communication with the Event Viewer. I normally choose the "Show Device Links Table" as this is rather communication intensive. You are looking for transmissions where "Hops Left" is the same as "Max Hops" or possibly one lower. Retries will be signified by multiple transmissions with no response from the device. Your 2450 could be an I1 device (uses Peek/Poke rather than I2 extended comm below) in which case the communication will be FAR more intensive. Good communication (I2 Extended Comms: One read returns 8 bytes of data) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:09 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 18 93 83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:09 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 18.93.83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 18.93.83 53.BC.3A 2F 2F 00 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 18.93.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [INST-ERX ] 02 51 18 93 83 53 BC 3A 15 2F 00 01 01 0F FF 01 A2 00 53 BC 3A FF 1F 01 C2 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 18.93.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=1 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 18 93 83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F F7 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 CA Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:10 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 18.93.83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F F7 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 CA 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 18.93.83 53.BC.3A 2F 2F 00 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 18.93.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [INST-ERX ] 02 51 18 93 83 53 BC 3A 11 2F 00 01 01 0F F7 01 22 47 53 BC 3A FF 1F 01 CA Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 18.93.83-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 18 93 83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F EF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:11 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 18.93.83 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F EF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:14 AM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Mon 01/15/2024 08:56:14 AM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Communication Re-tries (no INST-SRX 02 50 from device) Mon 01/15/2024 09:02:44 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 5B DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 Mon 01/15/2024 09:02:44 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.5B.DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 09:02:53 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 5B DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 Mon 01/15/2024 09:02:53 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.5B.DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 09:03:02 AM : [INST-TX-I2 ] 02 62 16 5B DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 Mon 01/15/2024 09:03:02 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 16.5B.DC 1F 2F 00 00 00 0F FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 C2 06 (00) Mon 01/15/2024 09:03:06 AM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Mon 01/15/2024 09:03:06 AM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices I1 Communication ( 2 Operations required for 1 byte of data) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 4B 4B 0F 28 0F Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 05.4B.4B 0F 28 0F 06 SET-MSB(0F) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 05.4B.4B 53.BC.3A 2F 28 0F SET-MSB(0F) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 05.4B.4B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 4B 4B 0F 2B F8 Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:41 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 05.4B.4B 0F 2B F8 06 PEEK (F8) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 05.4B.4B 53.BC.3A 2F 2B A2 PEEK (A2) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 05.4B.4B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 4B 4B 0F 28 0F Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 05.4B.4B 0F 28 0F 06 SET-MSB(0F) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 05.4B.4B 53.BC.3A 2F 28 0F SET-MSB(0F) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 05.4B.4B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 4B 4B 0F 2B F9 Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:42 AM : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 05.4B.4B 0F 2B F9 06 PEEK (F9) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:43 AM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 05.4B.4B 53.BC.3A 2F 2B 00 PEEK (00) Mon 01/15/2024 09:07:43 AM : [Std-Direct Ack] 05.4B.4B-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 1
Techman Posted January 15 Posted January 15 @DwayneA You can also try plugging your battery charger, or other offending devices, into a noise filter. Insteon use to have a Filterlinc but I don't currently see it on their product list. X10 has one that will probably work, but it's only rated at 5 amps (600 watts): XPPF Plug In Filter – X10.COM 1
Brian H Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) Unless it has been updated. The XPPF maybe rated at 5A but the internal coils get very hot when tested on a 4 amp incandescent bulb. So some care maybe needed. The FilterLinc may still be available. https://shop.insteon.com/products/powerline-noise-filter I sure does sound like the charger is a signal sucker. I have seen other reports of such things having a nice AC rated capacitor across the power lines for internal noise suppression but it also kills power line signals. Edited January 15 by Brian H add something
Techman Posted January 15 Posted January 15 Looks like the Filterlinc is available. For some reason it didn't show up on their product page, but it's on their store page which I overlooked..
DwayneA Posted January 16 Author Posted January 16 Hello all. Update after all your replies. Following yesterday's test of moving the IOLinc beside the PLM-ISY (where it worked) and then moving back into the garage where it also worked, the IOLinc stopped working again today and is not providing either sensor status or contact closure to the garage door opener. I now believe the issue is temperature related. We are in a cold snap in Western Canada (-35°C) and the temperature in the garage is probably around -20 to -25°C. Anyway, the IOLinc now refuses to work at all, even when moved back into the house and plugged in beside the PLM and ISY. I want to avoid Whack-A-Mole disconnection-reconnection of loads around the house searching for the elusive signal-sucker. The loads in the house haven't changed significantly for over 5y and things worked fine until this polar-vortex last week. In that vein I have ordered a replacement IOLinc for the garage door. I will update y'all when I install that replacement device. However, I have some follow-up questions. @IndyMike you wrote 13 hours ago, IndyMike said: Just noticed that you indicated that the 2450 is also CONTROLLING your garage door. Sorry, but I think that's a very bad idea. The 2450 is not the most reliable module. It's totally devoid of security, and it's susceptible to All-on/All-off communications. I understand to desire to monitor your garage door status, but please re-think controlling it with the 2450. The IOLinc is providing contact closure in parallel with the pushbutton that commands the door opener to change state. Can you expand on why this is dangerous? If the contact freezes closed the door opener just holds is last commanded state. Next question. Is it possible within the UD Admin Console to replace a module into the same scenes and scripts? I desire to install the replacement IOLinc without rebuilding all associated scenes and programs. Final question (for today... 🙂). I have two 2443 Access Points (AP) in this house. In both cases they are in close proximity to 2486 Control Keypads and wireless motion detectors. Are the APs really required (the keypads are actually closer to the motion detectors)? How do I tell if they are actually doing anything (they appear to be totally idle - no LED activity at all)? Again, thank you all for your time and replies. Dwayne A
Techman Posted January 16 Posted January 16 @DwayneA Next question. Is it possible within the UD Admin Console to replace a module into the same scenes and scripts? I desire to install the replacement IOLinc without rebuilding all associated scenes and programs Yes, use the "Replace Device" option in the right click menu of the device you're replacing. You'll first need to install the new device, but don't rename it. Final question (for today... 🙂). I have two 2443 Access Points (AP) in this house. In both cases they are in close proximity to 2486 Control Keypads and wireless motion detectors. Are the APs really required (the keypads are actually closer to the motion detectors)? How do I tell if they are actually doing anything (they appear to be totally idle - no LED activity at all)? You can try removing the access points, then use the 4 tap test, which also works on most insteon devices, (see attached file). If all the devices work without the access points then you're good to go. 4 Tap test.pdf 1
Brian H Posted January 16 Posted January 16 (edited) The 4 tap tests will also test the Access Points. LED flashing patterns will give you. Communicating and if on the same or opposite phase. Patterns will be determined by the Access Points revision. White in V1 or red/green V2. They should also show on any dual band modules LED if they are receiving the access points 4 tap test messages. The 2486 is a power line only keypad. So it will not receive any motion sensor messages as they are Insteon RF commands. Edited January 16 by Brian H correct statement
IndyMike Posted January 16 Posted January 16 10 hours ago, DwayneA said: The IOLinc is providing contact closure in parallel with the pushbutton that commands the door opener to change state. Can you expand on why this is dangerous? If the contact freezes closed the door opener just holds is last commanded state. Not dangerous - Insecure Unreliable - As you've already learned, the 2450 is powerline only. It has issues with communication in "problem areas" (no news here). In my experience, is it also susceptible to powerline transients activating the switch contacts. Transients are typically caused by inductive and capacitive loads activating/deactivating (motor loads, florescent, etc ). Many HA devices have problems with powerline spikes activating them. The 2450 seems "more" susceptible. I used on one my sprinkler controller to de-activate the system. The garage florescents would routinely activate the 2450 even though it was behind a filter. No Security - No Insteon device is "secure". You won't find an Insteon deadbolt on the market because the protocol does not support secure communication. Your garage door remote has rolling code encryption to prevent capturing and replaying the open close commands. The 2450 does not and can be easily defeated. Susceptible to All-On commands - Most (if not all) IOLinc modules are susceptible to all-on/all-off communication. This is a command built into the Insteon protocol that activates ALL LINKED UNITs. Unfortunately, the PLM can generate this command erroneously under certain conditions. I've had several occurrences, as have others - Another All ON EVENT. If you're lucky, your lights turn on. No great harm. If you're unlucky, your fireplace, house vent fan, and garage door activate. Edit: Wanted to be sure that the 2450 activated it's contacts due to an all-on. I verified that My 2450 with firmware v.36 responds to both All-on and All-off and activates it's contacts accordingly. This would absolutely open/close a garage door during a "All On Event". 2
Brian H Posted January 16 Posted January 16 The 2450 also uses the same switching power supply chip and poorly chosen capacitor model and capacity. I have seen a 10uF/25V in a V1.0 for C7. A 10uF/50V in a V1.8 and a 220uF/50V in a V2.3. At least in the ones I looked at. I don't know if they ever woke up and used a capacitor made for switching supplies. So after many years of working. It is possible it may eventually get flaky.
DwayneA Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 On 1/16/2024 at 6:51 AM, IndyMike said: Not dangerous - Insecure Thx for the clear explanations @IndyMike
DwayneA Posted January 31 Author Posted January 31 Update to this closed topic. A new 2450 module has been installed and is working perfectly with all chargers in the garage doing their thing. I think the original problem was an aged device pushed to the edge by extreme environmental conditions. Thanks @Brian H, @IndyMike and @Techman for answering all my questions and teaching me a thing or two. Keep your stick on the ice. Dwayne A
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