Adding to Scene

[mdfled]

I was trying to add a 2447D Switchlinc to a scene that is already part of another scene and getting a message do I want to make it a Responder to the scene I'm trying to add it to.   The Switchlinc is linked (via eisy/ISY) to two other Switchlincs.

 

So, I'm trying to add "Stair Master Switch" to "Daily Lights" and it is already part of "Stair Lights" scene and is the controller for the Stair Lights scene.  When I try to add it to Daily Lights I get the message Stair Master Lights is already a controller for Stair Lights, Would you like to make it a Responder?  If I say yes the next popup asks me if I want to make it a Controller or a Responder for the scene Daily Lights.  I'm curious as to the consequences if I make it a responder in the first popup and then make the controller or responder selection in the second popup?  I'm asking because I've been having the dreaded All-On mystical different lights turning on and I'm trying to rewrite some of my programs to see if I'm getting the errors because of Scenes sending multiple commands to the same device at the same time as outlined in the manuals/wiki.  

 

I thought it was better to use scenes to control multiple switches but it seems I don't fully understand what the consequences are and when to use a scene versus when to use manual linking, or to use discrete device commands in my programs.  IIRC a long time ago I was told not to do manual linking but to let ISY/eisy control things like linking.  In this case, the linking was done within eisy between the stair master switchlinc and the other two associated switchlincs but, at least for me, it is confusing when the UI asks about responder vs controller.  Is there a wiki link or something in the manual that better describes when to use which and has examples?

 

[Diesel]

You'll find many different perspectives on these forums. Such is the variety of life.

But there's some basic fundamental covenants to a properly working IoX/Insteon system; 

1. Never use manual links between devices unless you enjoy pain. IoX, the main brain of your system, is not aware of them.

2. For Multi-way circuits (3way, 4way, etc) always create a scene, and add all members to the scene as controllers.    

3. A device can only be a controller for 1 scene, but a responder to many scenes.

4. When controlling more than 1-2 devices, a scene is considerably more efficient and reliable.

5. Identify a proper naming convention for your devices and scenes, and stick to it.

With that out of the way, here's my perspective; 

I only use programs when I can't achieve what I want from using a scene.

From what I gather from your post, you have a multi-way stair case scene with your master and slaves. These devices should be factory reset to remove any manual links, then added in IoX to a StairCase scene. 

Stair Case1 (this is the master) - controller to Stair Case

Stair Case2 (this is a slave) - controller to Stair Case

Stair Case (this is the scene)

I don't think you'd want to control your daily lights (ie turn on your Daily Lights scene) every time you turn on your staircase lights so there's no point in making it a controller to the Daily Lights scene. Instead use a keypad button as the Daily Lights controller. You can add more than 1 from strategic locations, main floor, entrance, bedroom, etc and control the daily lights from all of them.  

We also want all devices in a multi-way circuit to remain in sync if they're part of the Daily Lights. To achieve this, Install the Virtual plugin in PG3x and create a virtual switch called Stair Case VS. Add that to the Stair Case scene as a controller. Then add that virtual switch to the Daily Lights scene as a responder. 

Then when Daily Lights is turned on, your Stair Case lights (and scene) are turned on, and your master and slave are also in sync. Simple, efficient, and no complicated programs needed. Use a program for Daily Lights scene to turn on/off conditionally (time of day or event).

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:44 PM by Diesel

[oberkc]

7 hours ago, mdfled said:

When I try to add it to Daily Lights I get the message Stair Master Lights is already a controller for Stair Lights, Would you like to make it a Responder? 

This is normal from my experience.  As Diesel points out, Insteon devices can only be a controller of one scene.

7 hours ago, mdfled said:

If I say yes the next popup asks me if I want to make it a Controller or a Responder for the scene Daily Lights. 

To my knowledge, I have never seen such a popup message.  This makes no sense to me.

[Guy Lavoie]

Another thing with scenes is that when you launch one that has several Insteon responders, Insteon communications will be busy for a noticeable period of time, up to a couple of seconds. This is because of the "cleanup" messages that are sent back and forth between the devices. If you have programs that launch scenes, avoid any programming that sends more Insteon commands immediately after launching a scene. Wait a couple of seconds. Commands sent too soon might not be reliable, and might even cause a dreaded "all on" event.

[kclenden]

9 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Another thing with scenes is that when you launch one that has several Insteon responders, Insteon communications will be busy for a noticeable period of time, up to a couple of seconds. This is because of the "cleanup" messages that are sent back and forth between the devices. If you have programs that launch scenes, avoid any programming that sends more Insteon commands immediately after launching a scene.

This is only half correct.  When a scene is activated, the command that activates it is an SA ALL-Link Broadcast message.  After an SA ALL-Link Broadcast message is sent, the device sending it can, but doesn't have to, send individually-addressed cleanup messages.  Those cleanup messages act as a second notice to devices that the broadcast message was sent, and causes the devices in the scene to respond with an ACK or NAK message.  Importantly, the eISY/Polisy/ISY does not send individually-addressed cleanup messages after it activates a scene, so devices do not respond with ACK/NAK messages and the power-line is not overloaded with communication.  So programmatically activating a scene from the eISY/Polisy/ISY will not overload the power-line with cleanup messages between devices.

You can see this in the Event Viewer at Level 3.  Here's the result of activating a scene from the Admin Console.  The scene has three devices: two SwitchLinc 2477S and one KeypadLinkc button.

You can see one command (first line) that goes from my eISY to the PLM and one command (second line) that goes from the PLM to the devices.  Lines 3-8 are not actually power-line communication, but merely the eISY logging the fact that it has changed the state of the three devices in the scene based on the fact that it sent the scene command.  Importantly, you don't see a second [INST-TX-I1] message from the eISY with a cleanup message, and there are no [INST-SRX] responses from the scene devices with an ACK/NAK.

I said only half correct above, because device to device scene activation (e.g. if I press the Keypad button to activate the scene instead of activating it from the Admin Console/Program) does involve cleanup messages.  If the scene has a lot of responders, this can tie up the power-line for a while, but this generally doesn't cause a problem because I can only push buttons so fast.  It does mean, though, that if you have a program that is activated by a scene controlling device, you need to be aware of that and control how quickly the program starts sending out power-line commands.

Edited Monday at 07:00 AM by kclenden