Button Status with Insteon Scenes

[PGME]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am not able to control the LED status on buttons where the button controls the same scene in more than one location (IE, the same scene is controlled by 3 buttons on 3 different switch panels).

 

I have been able to work around the problem to a degree by controlling the button mode (making some buttons dedicated off, and some on). But it would be nice to have the LEDs display if the scene is really on or off in all button locations.

 

This would also enable the effective use of toggle, which if enabled, often has to be pressed more than once to respond to the loads.

[LeeG]

PGME

 

All KPL buttons and/or SwitchLinc paddles involved in the Scene should be added to the ISY Scene as Controllers. The ISY assumes all Controllers are responders and will cross-link the devices so all KPL button LEDs and SwitchLinc LEDs will stay in sync.

 

Lee

[PGME]

PGME

 

All KPL buttons and/or SwitchLinc paddles involved in the Scene should be added to the ISY Scene as Controllers. The ISY assumes all Controllers are responders and will cross-link the devices so all KPL button LEDs and SwitchLinc LEDs will stay in sync.

 

Lee

 

Yes, I have done this, they are all controllers within the scene. Nevertheless the status reported is incorrect.

 

Could this possibly be due to the strange limitation of the load on each switchlink not being able to be turned off by a paddle on that switch (other than the main off switch), and having to set it at 1% instead? This may cause some button presses to create scenes which are not idential.

[LeeG]

PGME

 

Perhaps providing a detail explanation of the setup, KPL x button y for each KPL, SwitchLinc z, etc. and what type of device (dimmer versus relay) and what type of load (incandescent , CFL, low voltage LED, etc). In that context, what do you press and what result do you see that is not what you expect/want.

 

It sounds like you are describing a situation where a SwitchLinc will not completely turn Off the physical load it is controlling? What is the main Off switch if not the paddle (air gap/Set button ?)?

Lee

[PGME]

PGME

 

Perhaps providing a detail explanation of the setup, KPL x button y for each KPL, SwitchLinc z, etc. and what type of device (dimmer versus relay) and what type of load (incandescent , CFL, low voltage LED, etc). In that context, what do you press and what result do you see that is not what you expect/want.

 

It sounds like you are describing a situation where a SwitchLinc will not completely turn Off the physical load it is controlling?

 

Lee

 

OK, that may have been a mistake on my part, I don't want to get sidetracked onto that, it was just a guess that it may be a contributing factor to the status issue.

 

My main concern is the fact that status is not correctly reported by the buttons, where diffrent buttons control the same scene. In other words, when I press off, I want all those scene buttons to go off on all of the keypads.

 

These are all dimmers (I don't think SH makes a multiple button relay?). The loads are a mixture of LED lights and incandescent (though I do not believe that matter in this particular case).

[LeeG]

Let me set up a theoretical configuration ...

 

KPL A button C

KPL B button D

KPL C button Main (8 button KPL)

KPL D button ON/OFF (6 button KPL)

 

SwitchLinc E

SwitchLinc F

SwitchLinc G

 

When all of these have been added as Controllers of Scene X and the Scene information has been successfully written to all the device involved, pressing any button of the above KPL buttons will toggle all other button LEDs On and Off (assuming the buttons are all in Toggle mode) as well as changing all SwitchLinc status On or Off consistent with the KPL button that was pressed. Pressing any of the SwitchLinc paddles will do the same thing.

 

Is your configuration like the above (number of KPL buttons and SwitchLincs not withstanding) and if not what is the difference.

 

Did you code any ISY Programs that may be affecting any of the KPL or SwitchLinc LEDs. Programs are not necessary for the configuration I documented above. If you have Programs, please disable them so they are not having any effect on what should be basic Insteon device to device control.

 

Thanks

 

Lee

[PGME]

Let me set up a theoretical configuration ...

 

KPL A button C

KPL B button D

KPL C button Main (8 button KPL)

KPL D button ON/OFF (6 button KPL)

 

SwitchLinc E

SwitchLinc F

SwitchLinc G

 

When all of these have been added as Controllers of Scene X and the Scene information has been successfully written to all the device involved, pressing any button of the above KPL buttons will toggle all other button LEDs On and Off (assuming the buttons are all in Toggle mode) as well as changing all SwitchLinc status On or Off consistent with the KPL button that was pressed. Pressing any of the SwitchLinc paddles will do the same thing.

 

Is your configuration like the above (number of KPL buttons and SwitchLincs not withstanding) and if not what is the difference.

 

Did you code any ISY Programs that may be affecting any of the KPL or SwitchLinc LEDs. Programs are not necessary for the configuration I documented above. If you have Programs, please disable them so they are not having any effect on what should be basic Insteon device to device control.

 

Thanks

 

Lee

 

What if they are not in toggle mode, but in ON or OFF mode instead?

 

There are no programs setup, btw.

[LeeG]

It depends on the firmware in the KPL. Are non-toggle mode KPL buttons in the Scene the only buttons that are not responding as you want them to and if so what results are you seeing.

 

Example: On sent to non-toggle Off button but does not turn On

or perhaps Off sent to non-toggle On button and it does not turn Off.

 

Generally KPL buttons in non-toggle ON mode are On to indicate they are in non-toggle On mode and non-toggle Off buttons are Off to indicate they are in non-toggle Off mode.

 

Not at all sure what the KPL firmware is going to do at all firmware levels if you try to override what non-toggle mode LEDs are normally displaying. I can run some tests but it is likely going to vary by KPL firmware level. Older KPLs used the actual LED state (On or Off) to control whether a non-toggle mode button would issue an On command or an Off command. They moved the non-toggle mode On/Off command control into KPL memory at some KPL firmware level. I have some old KPLs where LED On/Off state affects the commands issued. Later KPLs do not seem to be affected by the KPL LED state but I’ve not tried to track what happens if you try an override the normal KPL LED operation.

[PGME]

It depends on the firmware in the KPL. Are non-toggle mode KPL buttons in the Scene the only buttons that are not responding as you want them to and if so what results are you seeing.

 

Example: On sent to non-toggle Off button but does not turn On

or perhaps Off sent to non-toggle On button and it does not turn Off.

 

Generally KPL buttons in non-toggle ON mode are On to indicate they are in non-toggle On mode and non-toggle Off buttons are Off to indicate they are in non-toggle Off mode.

 

Not at all sure what the KPL firmware is going to do at all firmware levels if you try to override what non-toggle mode LEDs are normally displaying. I can run some tests but it is likely going to vary by KPL firmware level. Older KPLs used the actual LED state (On or Off) to control whether a non-toggle mode button would issue an On command or an Off command. They moved the non-toggle mode On/Off command control into KPL memory at some KPL firmware level. I have some old KPLs where LED On/Off state affects the commands issued. Later KPLs do not seem to be affected by the KPL LED state but I’ve not tried to track what happens if you try an override the normal KPL LED operation.

 

Thanks. I will run some tests after putting some of the buttons back into toggle mode and post the results.

[PGME]

It depends on the firmware in the KPL. Are non-toggle mode KPL buttons in the Scene the only buttons that are not responding as you want them to and if so what results are you seeing.

 

Example: On sent to non-toggle Off button but does not turn On

or perhaps Off sent to non-toggle On button and it does not turn Off.

 

Generally KPL buttons in non-toggle ON mode are On to indicate they are in non-toggle On mode and non-toggle Off buttons are Off to indicate they are in non-toggle Off mode.

 

Not at all sure what the KPL firmware is going to do at all firmware levels if you try to override what non-toggle mode LEDs are normally displaying. I can run some tests but it is likely going to vary by KPL firmware level. Older KPLs used the actual LED state (On or Off) to control whether a non-toggle mode button would issue an On command or an Off command. They moved the non-toggle mode On/Off command control into KPL memory at some KPL firmware level. I have some old KPLs where LED On/Off state affects the commands issued. Later KPLs do not seem to be affected by the KPL LED state but I’ve not tried to track what happens if you try an override the normal KPL LED operation.

 

Thanks. I will run some tests after putting some of the buttons back into toggle mode and post the results.

 

I have run the tests with some interesting results-

 

1) You are correct if you set the buttons to toggle mode, you press the button once to turn the scene on, all of the other button lights that control that exact scene also come on, you press it again they go off... so in that sense what you say in toggle mode is completely true.

 

2) However, when you turn on a scene in toggle mode and then press another button, lets say an "all off" button, the scene goes off, but the scene button led remains lit, even if all the loads in the scene are now off.

 

This is pretty serious limitation and I would probably consider it to be a bug. I might be able to overcome it with some programming in the program section, however, this should not be required. Any scene button should automatically go off when all of the loads are off.

 

Another result of this bug is that you may have to press your scene button TWICE to turn the scene back on after having turned it off by pressing another button.

 

3) When the buttons are in either on or off only mode, this limitation does not apply, but all of the "on" buttons are always lit and all of the "off" buttons are always not lit (except when they are pressed and only briefly while running the script).

 

4) I wonder if playing with the "exclusive" controls will allow me to tell the LEDs when to come on or go off and help with this status isssue. I have not tried, because the system warns you that this can mess up the scenes.

 

As a side note, other system I have worked with do not have this limitation. If you have an extra 100K floating around and want to install something with some serious capabilities, try Vantage Controls. You can control the LED of each button by declaring "LED on when all loads are at 100%", "LED on when all loads are at any %", and many other variations.

[LeeG]

What is the "All Off" button? What is it doing?

 

If that is a Scene and a Toggle mode KPL button does not turn Off that KPL button is not part of the "All Off" Scene.

 

If the All Off button is simply turning Off all the devices that will not be reflected at the Scene level. The KPL button(s) has to be included in the devices that are being turned Off by "All Off"

[PGME]

What is the "All Off" button? What is it doing?

 

If that is a Scene and a Toggle mode KPL button does not turn Off that KPL button is not part of the "All Off" Scene.

 

If the All Off button is simply turning Off all the devices that will not be reflected at the Scene level. The KPL button(s) has to be included in the devices that are being turned Off by "All Off"

 

The all off button is turning all of the lights off in a particular area, but in this case it happens to turn off all of the lights in the scene as well. And yes, you are correct, it will not be reflected in the LED.

 

I an reading another post after doing some extensive searching that the key to this may be to add to my "all off" button as a responder to the scene.

 

Here's the post: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=5364&highlight=led+status

 

The user kingwr seems to explain it well:

 

keypad button status light reflects the status of that scene, not the status of the light.

 

His solution is the following:

 

My solution has been to add the keypad buttons as responders to the All Lights scene. A keypad button can be a controller in one scene (Scene A) and a responder in other scenes, such as the All Lights scene.

 

I'm going to give this a try.

[LeeG]

PGME

 

Yes, turning Off all the devices that are physically controlling loads has no effect of any device outside that group of devices. Each KPL button or SwitchLinc that is not directly controlling a physical load has to be added to the activity of the "All Off" button. Still unclear if the "All Off" button is driving a Scene which has all the devices that are controlling loads or it is triggering an ISY Program that is turning Off specific devices.

 

Primary KPL buttons (the ones that can control a physical load whether a physical load is connected or not) can be turned On and OFf just like any other individual device. Secondary KPL buttons CANNOT be turned On and Off as individual devices. You can define a Scene used for All Off function and make all the KPL Secondary buttons in play as responders in that All Off Scene. Then the All Off button Program turns the All Off Scene Off along with all the individual devices. If the All Off button is driving a Scene that contains all the load controlling devices, simple add the Secondary KPL buttons as responders to that Scene.

 

Lee

[PGME]

PGME

 

Yes, turning Off all the devices that are physically controlling loads has no effect of any device outside that group of devices. Each KPL button or SwitchLinc that is not directly controlling a physical load has to be added to the activity of the "All Off" button. Still unclear if the "All Off" button is driving a Scene which has all the devices that are controlling loads or it is triggering an ISY Program that is turning Off specific devices.

 

Primary KPL buttons (the ones that can control a physical load whether a physical load is connected or not) can be turned On and OFf just like any other individual device. Secondary KPL buttons CANNOT be turned On and Off as individual devices. You can define a Scene used for All Off function and make all the KPL Secondary buttons in play as responders in that All Off Scene. Then the All Off button Program turns the All Off Scene Off along with all the individual devices. If the All Off button is driving a Scene that contains all the load controlling devices, simple add the Secondary KPL buttons as responders to that Scene.

 

Lee

 

Basically this has solved the problem, thanks.

 

I suppose now to get one scene button to go off when I choose a diffrent scene I'll have to add in responders as well. For example, when I choose the scene "cook" and then later choose the scene "watch tv" cook's LED should turn off and only watch tv's LED should remain lit. This seems like a great deal of cross linking, I could just setup triggers to turn off one scene when other one has been turned on.

[Teken]

This question as given me a lot more insight as to my problem as well. Just reading the replies has made my head spin!

 

But, I will also try what has been suggested here as well. Since I too have the same problem with my set up.

 

As always LeeG, you're fantastic . . .

[PGME]

This question as given me a lot more insight as to my problem as well. Just reading the replies has made my head spin!

 

But, I will also try what has been suggested here as well. Since I too have the same problem with my set up.

 

As always LeeG, you're fantastic . . .

 

I believe it's more complicated than it should be. Some of these issues should be handled automatically in the software. I suspect part of the reason why it isn’t is that this system relies on two different vendors whose systems may not always have the same objectives.

[LeeG]

PGME

 

Congratulations. You have all the basic knowledge to set whatever KPL buttons On or Off you want to. You mentioned mutually exclusive KPL buttons (radio buttons) in an earlier post. That function works only for a button press within the KPL where the button is actually pressed. You can set up buttons such when button C is pressed On D and E turn Off but this works only when button B is physically pressed. Turning button B On from another device does not cause D and E to turn Off. Just the way KPL firmware works. Sometimes it is easier to define a Scene with a single Secondary button and control that Scene like you would an individual device. The problem with that approach is that you cannot get simultaneous device response as you get when you turn a Scene On and Off and all the devices follow simultaneously. Kind of pick your own poison. A Scene per KPL button may be easier to set up in some sense but the visual effect of devices turning On/Off in sequence rather than simultaneously may be to objectionable.

 

Good Luck. Post back if something new comes up that has not been covered so far.

 

Lee

[PGME]

PGME

 

Congratulations. You have all the basic knowledge to set whatever KPL buttons On or Off you want to. You mentioned mutually exclusive KPL buttons (radio buttons) in an earlier post. That function works only for a button press within the KPL where the button is actually pressed. You can set up buttons such when button C is pressed On D and E turn Off but this works only when button B is physically pressed. Turning button B On from another device does not cause D and E to turn Off. Just the way KPL firmware works. Sometimes it is easier to define a Scene with a single Secondary button and control that Scene like you would an individual device. The problem with that approach is that you cannot get simultaneous device response as you get when you turn a Scene On and Off and all the devices follow simultaneously. Kind of pick your own poison. A Scene per KPL button may be easier to set up in some sense but the visual effect of devices turning On/Off in sequence rather than simultaneously may be to objectionable.

 

Good Luck. Post back if something new comes up that has not been covered so far.

 

Lee

 

I will. Thanks again for the help.

[LeeG]

Teken

 

Sometimes it helps if what looks like a complex Scene definition is broken down into the individual pieces the Insteon hardware sees. The ISY is great at making Scene definition easy from a user perspective. All the underlying mechanics needed by the Insteon hardware is done under the covers when the ISY Scene definition is moved out to the individual devices.

 

Take a simple ISY Scene XXXX where there are 3 Switchlincs, one is physically controlling the load and the other two SwitchLincs are logical 3-4 way switches. Simply make all three SwitchLinc devices Controllers of the Scene XXXX.

 

Scene XXXX

SwitchLinc1 – Controller

SwitchLinc2 – Controller

SwitchLinc3 – Controller

 

Under the covers what the ISY actually defines is this ….

 

Scene 1 (arbitrary name for this example)

SwitchLinc 1 – Controller

SwitchLinc 2 – Responder – Bright level 100% Ramp rate 0.2 seconds

SwitchLinc 3 – Responder

 

Scene 2 (arbitrary name for this example)

SwitchLinc2 – Controller

SwitchLinc1 – Responder – Bright level 40% Ramp rate 5 seconds

SwitchLinc3 – Responder

 

Scene 3 (arbitrary name for this example)

SwitchLinc3 – Controller

SwitchLinc1 – Responder – Bright level 10% Ramp rate 2 seconds

SwitchLinc2 – Responder - Bright level 50% Ramp rate 4 seconds

 

Scene 4 (arbitrary name for this example)

ISY/PLM – Controller

SwitchLinc1 – Responder

SwitchLinc2 – Responder

SwitchLinc3 - Responder

 

SwitchLinc2 as a Responder to Scene 1 and Scene 3 can have a different Bright level and Ramp rate for each Scene. Same with SwitchLinc1, it can have a different Bright level and Ramp rate as a Responder for Scene 2 and Scene 3. When the Scenes are examined from the perspective of what the Insteon hardware sees it may be easier to see why things work the way they do. Each Scene’s Responders operate according to the definition for that particular Scene. When Scene 2 is turned On and Off by pressing SwitchLinc2 paddle, Insteon takes no action regarding Scene 1 or Scene 3 responder relationships. That is why KPL buttons do not respond unless they are part of the specific Scene being controlled, even if some or all of their responders are changing state.

 

Scene 4 is what is controlled when Scene XXXX is used in an ISY Program or by the Admin Console.

 

In its most basic form, from an Insteon perspective, every Scene has one Controller and one or more Responders. If a device is NOT a Responder in a particular Scene it is unaffected by any action done by that Scene.

 

Lee