clockwrkz Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Hi, I'm trying to wire a pair of SwitchLinc Dimmer 2477Ds but there is no neutral to a 3 way switch (2 switches controlling a single light fixture) in a stairway. The problem is the lower switch only has 1 set of 3 wires coming to it where all the black/white/red are hot and there is no neutral. Here is a better description and diagram of how it is currently wired: http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch-option2.htm Is there a solution to allow me to still use these switches with the wiring the way it is? Thanks for your help in advance.
LeeG Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 clockwrkz The Smarthome forum is a better place for information on this matter. The wires from the top location where there is a neutral (white) and line (black), where the 3 wires to the lower switch originate, two of those wires have to be retasked. The white wire of the 3-wire cable is connected to neutral in the top box. The black wire of the 3 wire cable is connected to the line in the top box. The red wire of the 3 wire cable is capped at both ends. This provides unswitched 120V to the lower switch. The red load control wire of the lower Insteon switch is capped. Once installed and powered the two switches are cross-linked with an ISY Scene where both switches are Controllers of the Scene. EDIT: answered without looking at the diagram. In addition to the change described above the wiring in the fixture has to be changed as well. Either an additional wire must be run from the fixture to the top switch box or you need an InlineLinc installed in the fixture. If using the InLineLinc approach then the fixture wiring is changed to pass through the neutral and line to the top switch box and as described above, on to the lower box. With the InLincLinc neither of the switches in the top nor bottom box physically control a load. They are cross-linked to the InlineLinc as well as themselves. Wired Insteon devices require unswitched neutral and line connections. Again, I suggest using the Smarthome forum for this topic. There are some Insteon users that are past and present electricians which provide great wiring information. Lee
oberkc Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I would like to confirm LeeG's response. Unfortunately, yours is the type of wiring that falls a bit short for insteon retrofit. In general, you need hot, neutral, and ground at each switch location. In addition, you need a way to supply the fixture with switched power. I also believe you will need an extra conductor between fixture and switch. Otherwise, you could use an inlinelinc.
clockwrkz Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 Thanks guys. I have a few ideas now after wiring a different 3 way switch... either way it's going to be a pain and I'm going to leave it uncontrolled for now. One question unrelated to my original post.... I was able to link 2 2477Ds by holding the paddle up for 10 seconds then press set on the second switch. All worked great. Then I imported the switches into the administration console of the ISY-99i. This over wrote the link information I believe because the switches aren't linked any longer. Is there someway I can recreate that link information using the administration console? Thanks again!
LeeG Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 Define an ISY Scene. Add both switches as Controllers of the Scene. Once the Scene information has been written to both switches the devices will be cross-linked. Not a good idea to link outside of ISY or factory reset the devices before adding to the ISY.
clockwrkz Posted February 6, 2011 Author Posted February 6, 2011 Thanks. I was just walking down that road. I was just working on trying to create the scene. I can't seem to find how to add them as Controllers of the scene though. They are both included in the scene though. Not sure if it matters, but they are coming up as "Unsupported Device: 1.32"
LeeG Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 The 2.8.14 image just released today fixes a problem with the 2477D/DH. To add a device to a Scene, right click on the device node (under My Lighting tree) and select something like Add Device to Scene ... (something like that, running to a Super Bowl party).
oberkc Posted February 6, 2011 Posted February 6, 2011 I was just working on trying to create the scene. I can't seem to find how to add them as Controllers of the scene though. They are both included in the scene though. Hopefully, you can get the update and recognize your devices. Normally, when you add a device to a scene, it will give you the option to add as controller, or responder.
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 Yes, the upgrade did the trick and everything made much more sense. Sorry to keep asking more and more questions but each step leads to a another one. In my kitchen I have 2 sets of lights. One controlled by a 3 way switch the other by a single switch. Everything is working correctly now (either side of the 3 way switch controls one light properly and the single light works fine independently as well). Now I'm trying to configure one side of the 3-way switch to control both the 3-way fixture and the single fixture. The opposite side of the 3 way switch should only control the 3 way fixture and not interfere with the independent switch. I assumed I needed to do this through a program so I created one called kitchen: If Control 'Kitchen All' is switched On Then Set 'Kitchen Front' On Else Set 'Kitchen Front' Off This didn't work and neither did using the status of 'Kitchen All' instead of Control. Kitchen All = should control both 3 way and independent Kitchen Back = Second half of 3 way. Should only control 3 way Kitchen Front = Independent and should only control independent. Am I going about this the wrong way? Thanks yet again for all your help! PS I should also add, just in case it affects things, I created a scene called Kitchen with both 'Kitchen All' and 'Kitchen Back' as controllers. 'Kitchen Front' is not included in the scene.
oberkc Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Am I going about this the wrong way? No. How did this not work? Did it turn on, but not off (this is what I expect from the program shown). I am a little surprised that the status did not work, at least a little bit. A couple of thoughts from the program displayed.... It will evaluate any time that "Kitchen All" is switched on, and only then. It will always evaluate true, and never evaluate false, therefore, the "else" path will never execute. If the "kitchen front" did not turn on, open the event viewer (under tools), manually turn on "kitchen all" and see if the event viewer shows receipt of this command. If the "kitchen front" turned on, but did not turn off, add a second program: If Control 'Kitchen All' is switched Off Then Set 'Kitchen Front' Off Else
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 How did this not work? Did it turn on, but not off (this is what I expect from the program shown). I am a little surprised that the status did not work, at least a little bit. 'Kitchen All' never controls 'Kitchen Front' either off or on. I now have two programs with this same result: If Control 'Kitchen All' is switched Off Then Set 'Kitchen Front' Off Else and If Control 'Kitchen All' is switched Off Then Set 'Kitchen Front' Off Else The problem with using Status instead of Control is that when I used the switch 'Kitchen Back' it would change the status of 'Kitchen All' (since they are together as the 3-way switch) and then this would affect 'Kitchen Front' which was incorrect. Right now, I just press "Save Changes" then go and test. Is there another step I might be missing? I'm new to interacting with the ISY-99i.
fitzpatri8 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 If I understand you correctly, you don't need a program at all. Each switch is its own controller, so you only need two scenes: Kitchen All scene should include Kitchen All switch as controller, Kitchen Front as a Responder and Kitchen Back as a responder. Kitchen Back scene should have Kitchen Back as a Controller and Kitchen All as a responder. Kitchen Front will be a responder to the Kitchen All scene but should not be a controller of any scene. (Edit: corrected & added Kitchen Back as controller of Kitchen Back scene.)
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 If the "kitchen front" did not turn on, open the event viewer (under tools), manually turn on "kitchen all" and see if the event viewer shows receipt of this command. I forgot to comment on this.... All lights where on. I turned 'Kitchen All' off using the switch and only 'Kitchen All' and 'Kitchen Back' received messages to turn off. Nothing was sent to 'Kitchen Front'. Thanks fitzpatri8. I'll give that a try too.
oberkc Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 I was, like fitzparti8, thinking scenes, but was not smart enough to come up with the correct combination. I kept thinking "a device can be controller of only one scene, but a responder in many". Looking at his response, I would amend as follows, for clarity: Kitchen All scene should include Kitchen All switch as controller, Kitchen Front as a Responder and Kitchen Back as a responder. Kitchen Back scene should have Kitchen All as a responder and kitchen back as controller. While you could do this with programs, I prefer scenes when possible. The are not reliant on the ISY, and they are quicker. I forgot to comment on this.... All lights where on. I turned 'Kitchen All' off using the switch and only 'Kitchen All' and 'Kitchen Back' received messages to turn off. Nothing was sent to 'Kitchen Front'. This is consistent with my earlier explanation, I believe. Your program would never execute the "else" path, because it only triggers upon receipt of an "on" command, and always evaluates as true. The problem with using Status instead of Control is that when I used the switch 'Kitchen Back' it would change the status of 'Kitchen All' (since they are together as the 3-way switch) and then this would affect 'Kitchen Front' which was incorrect. Yes...it sounds like you have a good grasp of how this works. That is why I was looking for a better explanation than "This didn't work and neither did using the status".
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 I sorted out what was wrong with the program.... I was checking for On or Off only and not Fast On and Fast Off. When I added that check as an 'Or' everything works. The only problem now being that there is a 1 second delay between the 'Kitchen All' being toggled and it then controlling 'Kitchen Front'.
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 Thanks oberkc for the confirmation. I still plan on trying out the scene change.... right after dinner! This debugging process has given me a much better understanding how the ISY-99i works so it's been a great experience. Thanks again to everyone for your help!
fitzpatri8 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Thanks, oberkc, for catching my oversight!
oberkc Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 The only problem now being that there is a 1 second delay between the 'Kitchen All' being toggled and it then controlling 'Kitchen Front'. That is the delay associated with programs. It is good that you got the program figured out, but I would definitely try the scene approach if the delay bothers you.
clockwrkz Posted February 7, 2011 Author Posted February 7, 2011 Just to close the loop on this issue.... the scenes work perfectly. There is a still a slight delay between the front and back (quarter to half a second) but that's better then using a program. Thanks again for all the help!
Recommended Posts