Motion Sensing

[sfhutchi]

With the addition of X10, I thought that I would try the X10 motion sensing devices with a x10 RF Transceiver plugged directly into the PLM stack.

 

With a simple program that looks for the X10 'on' command, I have it turn on a light, wait 3 minutes, then turn off the light.

 

This setup is almost completely unusable. If everything is 'off' and I move in front of the sensor, it takes multiple seconds for the little red light to flash as if it doesn't detect the motion right away. Then in most cases the light never turns on. The transceiver is only about 5 feet away through 1 wall and plugged directly into the PLM. In some cases the light does come on... but this is rare.

 

Upside is that this was a 'cheap' setup to try... but seems to say that I got what I paid for it. The only other route appears to hardwire some motion sensors and purchase and Insteon interface or purchase the expensive motion sensors that require the expensive Insteon interface.

 

Anyone successfully handling motion sensing in any fashion?

I am looking for some motion sensing when entering rooms, closets, and the like. It needs to be reliable and have response time within a second or two.

 

Also, is there a way to confirm when the ISY99 is receiving X10 commands. I am using v. 1.0.0.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Awwwa don't you know how those things work;

...your not running around fast enough,

...flapping your arms,

...kicking your feet,

...no cell phone in your pocket,

...raise your voice loud enough to create sonic vibrations,

...moon has to be in alignment with the earth,

...within a two point five degree angle,

...in front of the sensor.

 

It needs motion to trigger it!!!

 

Sorry for your troubles.

[Chris Jahn]

You can log keypresses, X10 messages and other events as they happen in the Java Console, as shown in this thread:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=346

[MikeB]

Anyone successfully handling motion sensing in any fashion?

I am looking for some motion sensing when entering rooms, closets, and the like. It needs to be reliable and have response time within a second or two.

 

I'm using a cheap X10 motion sensor out in my driveway to trigger lights with my ISY, and it works well.

 

I did initially try it in my master closet, but the delay was a bit too much in my opinion.

[sfhutchi]

Yes... maybe my expectations are too high for these cheap motion sensors. I am expecting motion response time and sensitivity similar to the hard wired motion sensors for my security system.

 

Thanks for the pointer on the Java Console Chris.

[yardman 49]

Hello SF:

 

I was unclear from your post whether the light that you are trying to control is an Insteon, or another X10 device.

 

I have some X10 devices in my system (some switches, some floodlights). Whenever I issue an X10 command, I always do it in duplicate or triplicate, with a 2 second wait between every repeated command.

 

From experience, I know that X10 in my network has grown to be unreliable due to the amount of Insteon devices that I have in my circuit that suck up the X10 signals. The PLM is another offender that sucks up X10 signals. Hence I issue the replicate commands. This seems to work well for me. If the first send doesn't work, the second or third will get through.

 

Have you tried taking the X10 transceiver off of the back of the PLM, and instead plugging it in elsewhere on the same circuit? Just a thought. Alternately, try to plug the transceiver in as close as possible to your breaker box.

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

Yes... maybe my expectations are too high for these cheap motion sensors. I am expecting motion response time and sensitivity similar to the hard wired motion sensors for my security system.

 

I think part of the problem is the motion sensor itself. The other part is the time it takes for the X10 transceiver to receive the X10 signal, send it over the powerline, the PLM to receive it, the ISY to read it, run the appropriate program, and send the proper Insteon commands back out....

[sfhutchi]

I was unclear from your post whether the light that you are trying to control is an Insteon, or another X10 device.

 

It is an Insteon light. The 'only' x10 in the house now is the transceiver and the wireless X10 motion sensor.

 

I'll keep playing with it..... but it seems more like a hobby device and not real home automation.

[Algorithm]

With the addition of X10, I thought that I would try the X10 motion sensing devices with a x10 RF Transceiver plugged directly into the PLM stack.

 

With a simple program that looks for the X10 'on' command, I have it turn on a light, wait 3 minutes, then turn off the light.

 

This setup is almost completely unusable. If everything is 'off' and I move in front of the sensor, it takes multiple seconds for the little red light to flash as if it doesn't detect the motion right away. Then in most cases the light never turns on. The transceiver is only about 5 feet away through 1 wall and plugged directly into the PLM. In some cases the light does come on... but this is rare.

 

You didn't mention the X-10 motion sensor model. Be aware that many X-10 motions have dusk/dawn sensing, in which they send [Motion Unit+1] On/Off. More importantly, they won't send the Motion On/Off during 'daylight' hours (hours when it 'sees' light). On some models this is not configurable, but can be defeated by cutting a component lead.

 

The point is that if the light that the sensor sees is changing as you are trying to activate it, you will sometimes see exactly the symptoms you describe--I have this happen frequently in one location where in walking by the sensor one also interrupts the light from the window. Then again, this may have nothing to do with your problem.

[sfhutchi]

You didn't mention the X-10 motion sensor model. Be aware that many X-10 motions have dusk/dawn sensing, in which they send [Motion Unit+1] On/Off. More importantly, they won't send the Motion On/Off during 'daylight' hours (hours when it 'sees' light). On some models this is not configurable, but can be defeated by cutting a component lead.

 

I don't think that this is the issue, but this same thought crossed my mind. It is configurable for dusk/dawn or 24 hour. I 'supposedly' have it configured now for 24 hour, but maybe not. I will play around with it more.

 

I also have it configured for 1 minute before it sends an 'off' command. I didn't change this because I am not using this for my test. I am simply looking for the 'on' signal. I assumed that this meant that it won't send another 'on' command until motion stops and 1 minute passes... but this is purely speculation.

[Algorithm]

I also have it configured for 1 minute before it sends an 'off' command. I didn't change this because I am not using this for my test. I am simply looking for the 'on' signal. I assumed that this meant that it won't send another 'on' command until motion stops and 1 minute passes... but this is purely speculation.

 

In all my X-10 motion usage with the Ocelot, I always used only the On command, and ignored the Off command in favor of the Ocelot determining the Off time based on various conditions. Because of this, I set the motions to the longest timeout possible since the Off command was not used anyway; this reduces the amount of X-10 traffic.

 

The X-10 motions that I have used, have a blanking period of ten seconds, meaning that after detecting motion (and sending On), they go to sleep for ten seconds, after which they will again send another On when they see motion. Some of the X-10 motions I have used do not even reset the timer, meaning that if set to one minute as yours are, they will send the Off command one minute after the first On command, no matter how many times motion was detected in between. So you can see that just a few X-10 motions placed in moderate activity areas will generate a huge amount of X-10 activity.

[sfhutchi]

..... Because of this, I set the motions to the longest timeout possible since the Off command was not used anyway; this reduces the amount of X-10 traffic.....

 

Good to know. I will try this out.

[jgraziano]

I'm using one of the Hawkeye type X10 sensors to trigger a scene in our family room. At a normal walking pace, the scene is on in less than 6-8 feet of walking distance from the sensor, and it has NEVER failed to trigger that scene (it's programmed to only occur once per day).

[sfhutchi]

Jim,

I would be interested in more details of your configuration if you are willing to share. For example, are you using an ISY to receive the x10, what are you using to receive the wireless x10, where in your setup is this (close to plm, close to motion sensor, etc.? Thanks for any pointers.

[jgraziano]

Hi sfhutchi,

 

It couldn't be more simple. The motion sensor is located in the hallway leading to the family room with an RR501 transceiver plugged into a receptacle just below it. The X10 code is A5, it is set to detect motion all of the time. Then they ISY program is nothing more than:

 

If

X10 'A5/On (3)' is Received

 

Then

Set Scene 'SC-Morning Lightup (Motion)' On

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

Now, I do have X10 transmission issues which I have not resolved, this RR501 is apparently on the same phase as the PLM, but not particularly close to it. It is extremely reliable and not terribly slow. From the time I see the little red light flash to full on is about 2 seconds, including the .5 second ramp rate.

You may already know this (or it may have been mentioned already), but PIR motion sensors are designed to detect motion passing in front from one side to the other. Walking toward or away from it will not trigger it reliably. They have vertical zones and you have to pass from one zone to the next.

 

If you haven't already, try placing the xcvr closer to the motion sensor. But for best reliability that would need to be on the same phase, and you may no know if that is the case.

[sfhutchi]

Thanks for the info. I have the smaller little transceiver (Item 4002). Not sure if this is as reliable. I will try moving this close to the sensor though. I'll have to play around with it a bit. Your example should help me get to something a bit more useable. Maybe I am simply not getting the signal to the receiver.

[jgraziano]

I've got one of those smaller ones, also. It seems to work ok, but it is acting directly on an X10 wall switch module and not via the ISY.

It's been stated here that the RR501 is better mainly because it has some degree of collision detection of X10 signals on the line when it is trying to transmit. I wouldn't think that's your problem.

If your motion detector has the on/off switch inside behind the front cover, you can use that for testing. That would eliminate the variable of the actual motion sensor.

[sfhutchi]

My motion sensor has two buttons in the battery compartment. These are used to set all the functions that are highlighted by the number of flashes on the red LED. Not sure what the model is, but I just bought it from Smarthome and it says X10 Pro on the front.

[jgraziano]

One of those should be on/off, I believe it is the one on the right. It just sends on and off commands alternately. Makes troubleshooting easier.

 

If you buy more of these I would recommend:

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Digitronex-Domain

 

Tons cheaper and so far, service has been good for me.

[sfhutchi]

Thanks for the link. It is amazing how much lower their prices are.

[Algorithm]

My motion sensor has two buttons in the battery compartment. These are used to set all the functions that are highlighted by the number of flashes on the red LED. Not sure what the model is, but I just bought it from Smarthome and it says X10 Pro on the front.

 

A quick search of SmartHome's site turned up a couple of X-10 motion sensors, HawkEye (white) and EagleEye (black), but nothing that showed a picture with 'X-10 Pro' on the front. In all of the X-10 motions I have used (x10.com), the left button sends the On command, the right button sends Off. The buttons are pressed and held for setting configuration. X-10 Pro models may differ in having one button toggle On/Off, as Jim said.

[jgraziano]

In all of the X-10 motions I have used (x10.com), the left button sends the On command, the right button sends Off

 

Aargh. . . . Joe, you're right. That's the way mine is, it doesn't toggle on/off. Brain f**t.

 

Sorry for the mis-info!

 

Mine say "X10 ActiveHome". I have both Eagle Eye and Hawk Eye.

[sfhutchi]

Even though mine says 'X10 Pro', it sounds to be the same as mentioned. It has 2 separate buttons.

[IndyMike]

sfhutchi,

 

Jim was "spot on" with the following. These sensors require side to side or up down motion for reliable operation.

 

They can also be "blinded" by sunlight or the light in your closet. You can prevent this by angling the sensor downward. Not sure if your closet has a door (mine doesn't). If so, you could try attaching the sensor to the inside of the door (lot's of sensed motion when the door is opened).

 

You may already know this (or it may have been mentioned already), but PIR motion sensors are designed to detect motion passing in front from one side to the other. Walking toward or away from it will not trigger it reliably. They have vertical zones and you have to pass from one zone to the next.

 

A couple of additional comments about your "item 4002" transceiver. This is actually a X10 brand TM751 unit. I'm not sure about recent units (x10 has been making a lot of changes recently) but units manufactured up through 2006 did not use collision avoidance. They do not check the powerline for activity prior to transmitting. They've been known to bring X10 systems to their knees by disrupting other device communications. I can't imagine that they would not also interfere with Insteon.

 

If you add additional X10 motion sensors (more X10 powerline traffic) and begin to notice Insteon problems, try removing the TM751.

 

IM

[sfhutchi]

A couple of additional comments about your "item 4002" transceiver. This is actually a X10 brand TM751 unit. I'm not sure about recent units (x10 has been making a lot of changes recently) but units manufactured up through 2006 did not use collision avoidance. They do not check the powerline for activity prior to transmitting. They've been known to bring X10 systems to their knees by disrupting other device communications. I can't imagine that they would not also interfere with Insteon.

 

If you add additional X10 motion sensors (more X10 powerline traffic) and begin to notice Insteon problems, try removing the TM751.

 

IM

 

I'm thinking of pulling out this transceiver and upgrading it. The other model isn't much more expensive and worth a try. Right now, I was simply testing the sensor in a hallway which definitely should register the motion.

If the red light on the motion sensor is what is identifying detected motion, the device itself is not that sensitive. I am familiar with what is required for general motion sensors, but this is not as sensitive as other wired sensors that I have tied into my security system. I will probably buy another x10 sensor to see if they are any different.