Keypadlinc's shorting out

[Zick]

A single Line (Yellow) from one breaker goes to multiple locations. These locations use different neutral runs back to the power panel.

 

That would be correct.

 

So is this OK or no?

 

I'd really like to hammer out this issue before I decide on buying new switches. Don't want to buy anything until I know they are not going to get damaged.

[Teken]

A single Line (Yellow) from one breaker goes to multiple locations. These locations use different neutral runs back to the power panel.

 

That would be correct.

 

So is this OK or no?

 

I'd really like to hammer out this issue before I decide on buying new switches. Don't want to buy anything until I know they are not going to get damaged.

 

If I understand what LeeG is alluding to. He is asking whether or NOT the neutrals that are tied together are indeed on the same phase / leg.

 

If they are no worries. If they are indeed tied into two different phase / legs of the electrical panel this may pose the problem you're seeing now.

 

I find it hard to believe this problem just appeared after two years though?? Zick, you're the member from the GJ forum as well??

 

Teken . . .

[LeeG]

I don't think that is code but I'm not a licensed electrician. The code question aside two devices which have no load attached have been damaged. Could be they just decided to fail but I don't believe in coincidence. There is an electrical issue either the result of multiple neutral paths or they are making it difficult to analyze the actual failure.

 

With the issue not been found using a meter I would disconnect all Line (Yellow) wires except at the location where the KPL was damaged. Connect a working KPL and see what happens. I understand that might damage a third KPL but I think the initial KPL will be okay with everything else disconnected. Then reconnect the other devices one at a time until the KPL shows a symptom. You might be able to catch it quick enough to prevent the third KPL from being permanently damaged.

[ELA]

I have a make shift cord that I can put in different ends (outlets, sockets, etc), I will connect it up to the box with an incandescent bulb and see what happens.

I won't get to try this until I get home from work thought.

 

Thanks for the help so far guys!

 

 

Hello Zick,

 

It is possible for line voltage to be very rapidly changing, faster than the response time of your meter. An oscilloscope or a fast recording meter are required to determine that.

 

Since you have a test cord would it be possible to try this in a neighbors house or at work? This might help you isolate/identify your power quality as the possible issue.

 

I am curious about the yellow (hot) wire. Yellow seem unusual, unless it might be associated with a uninterruptible power source?

[Zick]

If I understand what LeeG is alluding to. He is asking whether or NOT the neutrals that are tied together are indeed on the same phase / leg.

 

If they are no worries. If they are indeed tied into two different phase / legs of the electrical panel this may pose the problem you're seeing now.

 

I find it hard to believe this problem just appeared after two years though?? Zick, you're the member from the GJ forum as well??

 

Teken . . .

 

 

Just to try and keep everyone on the same page.

The neutrals are in fact on the same phase. Each wall switch has a dedicated line that runs straight to the service panel and wired into the neutral bus bar.

 

The Yellow (hot) are also all on the same phase. Eash wall switch has a dedicated line that runs straight to the service panel but right before it goes into a breaker, the multiple yellow wires are tied together and from that wire nut a single wire goes into the breaker.

 

And yes Teken, I would be the same on GJ. Remember, the one with the indoor pond and cabinet full of insteon switches.

[Zick]

With the issue not been found using a meter I would disconnect all Line (Yellow) wires except at the location where the KPL was damaged. Connect a working KPL and see what happens. I understand that might damage a third KPL but I think the initial KPL will be okay with everything else disconnected. Then reconnect the other devices one at a time until the KPL shows a symptom. You might be able to catch it quick enough to prevent the third KPL from being permanently damaged.

 

I have actually done this already but I was using the two keypadlinc that were experiencing the issue. I'm hesitent to put a known good one in that location but afraid I might have to...

 

I have a make shift cord that I can put in different ends (outlets, sockets, etc), I will connect it up to the box with an incandescent bulb and see what happens.

I won't get to try this until I get home from work thought.

 

Thanks for the help so far guys!

 

 

Hello Zick,

 

It is possible for line voltage to be very rapidly changing, faster than the response time of your meter. An oscilloscope or a fast recording meter are required to determine that.

 

Since you have a test cord would it be possible to try this in a neighbors house or at work? This might help you isolate/identify your power quality as the possible issue.

 

I am curious about the yellow (hot) wire. Yellow seem unusual, unless it might be associated with a uninterruptible power source?

 

I am using a Fluke 88-5 to take the readings although not as useful as an oscilloscope might be for this test.

I can try and take the possibly damaged keypadlincs to another location to test. But if their already damaged, then they would act the same way at the other location I would think.

 

Also, I don't know the exact reason for using the yellow wire. My FIL who is a Electrical Engineer did all of our wiring.

[Zick]

 

Just to try and keep everyone on the same page.

The neutrals are in fact on the same phase. Each wall switch has a dedicated line that runs straight to the service panel and wired into the neutral bus bar.

 

The Yellow (hot) are also all on the same phase. Eash wall switch has a dedicated line that runs straight to the service panel but right before it goes into a breaker, the multiple yellow wires are tied together and from that wire nut a single wire goes into the breaker.

 

And yes Teken, I would be the same on GJ. Remember, the one with the indoor pond and cabinet full of insteon switches.

 

 

Ok, I'm going to take a step back here a second because after thinking about this again and doing some reading I might be wrong about the neutrals being on the same phase.

 

My understanding was that the hot wire would make the difference for the phase depending on which leg the breaker was connected to.

I was thinking that since all the neutrals wired into the neutral bus bar that they would be the same but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

Can someone explain how I can 100% verify if my neutral are in fact on the same phase?

 

Thanks

[Zick]

Some info I found, maybe relevant or maybe not.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=790713

[LeeG]

Unlike circuit breakers feeding Line (Black, Yellow in this case) from different 120V legs, the Neutral is not feed from a different leg. Neutrals return to a common bus. One problem would be if the Line came from different 120V legs but shared a Neutral. What is normal for a 240V circuit. If that shared Neutral becomes lose 120V devices can be feed 240V with terminal results.

 

When the Neutral and Line are maintained as a pair, branching out to different locations, so long as the Neutral and Line remain paired the worst that can happen is a device losses power. When that pairing relationship does not exist bad things can result depending on what wiring defect occurs.

[Zick]

Unlike circuit breakers feeding Line (Black, Yellow in this case) from different 120V legs, the Neutral is not feed from a different leg. Neutrals return to a common bus. One problem would be if the Line came from different 120V legs but shared a Neutral. What is normal for a 240V circuit. If that shared Neutral becomes lose 120V devices can be feed 240V with terminal results.

 

When the Neutral and Line are maintained as a pair, branching out to different locations, so long as the Neutral and Line remain paired the worst that can happen is a device losses power. When that pairing relationship does not exist bad things can result depending on what wiring defect occurs.

 

So I should be OK, because my neutrals don't branch out to different circuits. All wall boxes are home run conduits and don't tie into other conduits. There is a lot of conduit here

The hot wire is basically the same except that they all tie together right before connecting to the single breaker.

[LeeG]

If it were that simple two devices wired into the same location would not have been damaged.

[Zick]

Well I took a chance and put yet another good keypadlinc into that spot and so far nothing has happened.

 

But I've now have a total of 5 that are shorting out. One that is completely toast and 4 others that short out for a while but then stabilze.

 

 

This is not looking good for only 2 1/2 years in operation.

[oberkc]

Ok, I'm going to take a step back here a second because after thinking about this again and doing some reading I might be wrong about the neutrals being on the same phase.

 

My understanding was that the hot wire would make the difference for the phase depending on which leg the breaker was connected to.

I was thinking that since all the neutrals wired into the neutral bus bar that they would be the same but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

I don't know if you are mistaken about the neutral "phase" thing. Phase suggests that there is an alternating voltage. On a neutral there none. Phase means nothing relative to neutrals, as you stated.

 

However, this should not be taken that one does not have to take care with regards to which neutral one uses. For each circuit, there should be a hot and neutral. Loads put on a circuit's hot should also be on that same circuit's neutral. You should not use the hot from one circuit and a neutral from another.

 

This has nothing to do with whether there is a neutral phase (or leg). It has everything to do with ensuring that current on the neutral does not exceed the capacity of the conductor. If one starts putting loads from multiple circuits on a single circuit's neutral, then one could (theoretically) have the current of 30 or 40 amps on a wire rated for 15 or 20.

 

Each wall switch has two wires consisting of a Yellow hot and White neutral pulled from the mechnical room. Each neutral wire go straight to the neutral bus bar in the service panel.

 

If you have separate/dedicated neutral wires for each switch (and outlet) location, all going straight to the neutral bar, then this would preclude overloading the neutral wire, so long as all the switches in a given box are powered by the hot from a single circuit breaker. If this is the case, I don't see the neutrals being a safety issue or a cause of your switch failures.

[Zick]

If you have separate/dedicated neutral wires for each switch (and outlet) location, all going straight to the neutral bar, then this would preclude overloading the neutral wire, so long as all the switches in a given box are powered by the hot from a single circuit breaker. If this is the case, I don't see the neutrals being a safety issue or a cause of your switch failures.

 

This is how it's setup. Thanks for the information.

[LeeG]

oberkc

 

Any idea why 5 devices have been damaged when the only connections are the KeypadLinc Line and Neutral wires (nothing on the red load wire).

[Zick]

The other thing that is strange and leads me to believe it might be defective keypadlincs is that I have multiple Switchlincs connected to the same circuit and none of those have experienced any issues.

All the keypadlincs are V5.0.

 

These all could have been possible "defective" for a while now because the only time the problem shows up is when the power is removed and readded such as a power outage (which usually don't happen much or when I'm not around). Then after a while they go back to normal or at least most did.

 

I don't appear to be the only one with this issue;

http://www.smarthome.com/FORUM/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9145

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8997

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9388

[oberkc]

Any idea why 5 devices have been damaged when the only connections are the KeypadLinc Line and Neutral wires

 

I have been watching this thread with interest. Most of the ideas that I came up with were addressed by others. Based on how I understand your wiring, while unusual, I see nothing that jumps out at me as a problem that would induce failures. I have no personal experience or have seen anything in this forum and others that leads me to think your experience is common. While other have had device failures, the numbers of failures that you have and the fact that it appears centered around a single location makes me suspect that there is more going on here than bad luck.

 

While I think LeeG is correct that bad connections generally won't INCREASE voltage, I cannot help but suspect that loose connections can cause arcing, reduced voltage, frequency issues, rapid power cycles, and other things that could contribute to electronic device failure. None of these things can be good.

 

You mentioned that the hot (yellow!?) wires originate from a breaker, then branch out to multiple switch locations. How are these branch connections established? Wire nuts? I read that you have temporarily disconnected some of those as part of troubleshooting, but this certainly strikes me as an area that could induce arcing and power cycles. If it were me, this is where I would be focusing. I might even be inclined to break out the solder gun if I had any reason to suspect faulty connections.

 

Otherwise, I see nothing electrically unusual that would explain your batch of failures.

[Zick]

Hi oberkc,

 

The hot wires that branch out are in fact tied together by a wire nut and "appeared" to be a good connection.

I suppose I could solder them together althought I'm not sure what method would be the best which this many wires coming together?

Should I just leave the wires twisted and solder them up as it, kind of like this?

 

 

You mentioned voltage changes (drop/increase). Just how much change in voltage would be acceptable and not to cause any damage?

[ELA]

 

Also, I don't know the exact reason for using the yellow wire. My FIL who is a Electrical Engineer did all of our wiring.

 

Have you asked him?

[Zick]

 

Also, I don't know the exact reason for using the yellow wire. My FIL who is a Electrical Engineer did all of our wiring.

 

Have you asked him?

 

No I haven't yet, but does it really matter if he used Yellow instead of Red?

[Teken]

 

Also, I don't know the exact reason for using the yellow wire. My FIL who is a Electrical Engineer did all of our wiring.

 

Have you asked him?

 

No I haven't yet, but does it really matter if he used Yellow instead of Red?

 

In the big scheme of things it doesn't matter. So long as you *The Owner* is aware of what the color means and how it affects future reno's etc.

 

Teken . . .

[LeeG]

Zick

 

Check the ground busses where the neutrals are connected at the power panel. Are the switch locations that have sustained damage on the same ground buss? There are screws that connect each ground buss to the ground. Make sure these are tight, particularly on the ground buss where the neutrals are attached for the locations that have experienced problems.

 

Please be careful when doing the above. It is relatively easy to short something that can cause large amounts of current to flow. It is not an exaggeration to say an event could be fatal.

 

Lee

[Zick]

Hi Lee,

 

That was actually one of the first things I did was to check all the neutral and ground screws on the bus bars. I found some that were about 1/4 to 1/2 turn from being really snugged down tight.

[oberkc]

You mentioned voltage changes (drop/increase). Just how much change in voltage would be acceptable and not to cause any damage?

 

The only knowledge I have of this would be part of the keypad literature. I think it is typically +/-10%, but you can check. My suspicion is that if your issues are connector related, it would be more about transient and intermittent conditions rather than just pure peak voltages.

 

My suspicion, further, is that the conditions at your house are simply revealing some weakness (rather, lack of robustness) in the keypad design. Others have pointed to posts about similar problems and persistent failures, but I suspect a vast majority experience very limited and random failures. I take this as an indication that some houses have minor wiring issues that don't bother most electrical devices, but could affect those electronic devices designed without a lot of margin. Perhaps smarthome devices are one of the latter (pure speculation based on your experience here).

 

Depending on how much work you want to put into this, and how comfortable you are with electrical, one option is to measure resistance between the switch location hot, and the circuit breaker. If possible, measure this resistance while moving the branch connector. My experience is that this resistance will be well below 1 ohm. Heed LeeGs advice here with regards to being careful.

 

No I haven't yet, but does it really matter if he used Yellow instead of Red?

 

I also don't know why your electrician used yellow, but I understand that this is code compliant. Most of us are used to black and red because of this being the common colors in sheathed electrical cable, but I don't believe yellow is a restricted color (like white or green). Red, blue, black, yellow, orange, and red are, I believe, ungrounded conductors by code.

 

Should I just leave the wires twisted and solder them up as it, kind of like this?

 

That is how I would do it, being sure to make sure everything is cleaned and flux is applied.

 

One thing I have found about wire nuts is that they work best when the wirenut threads engage EVERY conductor. With 4+ conductors, this can sometimes be tricky.

[Zick]

You mentioned voltage changes (drop/increase). Just how much change in voltage would be acceptable and not to cause any damage?

 

The only knowledge I have of this would be part of the keypad literature. I think it is typically +/-10%, but you can check. My suspicion is that if your issues are connector related, it would be more about transient and intermittent conditions rather than just pure peak voltages.

 

My suspicion, further, is that the conditions at your house are simply revealing some weakness (rather, lack of robustness) in the keypad design. Others have pointed to posts about similar problems and persistent failures, but I suspect a vast majority experience very limited and random failures. I take this as an indication that some houses have minor wiring issues that don't bother most electrical devices, but could affect those electronic devices designed without a lot of margin. Perhaps smarthome devices are one of the latter (pure speculation based on your experience here).

 

Depending on how much work you want to put into this, and how comfortable you are with electrical, one option is to measure resistance between the switch location hot, and the circuit breaker. If possible, measure this resistance while moving the branch connector. My experience is that this resistance will be well below 1 ohm. Heed LeeGs advice here with regards to being careful.

 

No I haven't yet, but does it really matter if he used Yellow instead of Red?

 

I also don't know why your electrician used yellow, but I understand that this is code compliant. Most of us are used to black and red because of this being the common colors in sheathed electrical cable, but I don't believe yellow is a restricted color (like white or green). Red, blue, black, yellow, orange, and red are, I believe, ungrounded conductors by code.

 

Should I just leave the wires twisted and solder them up as it, kind of like this?

 

That is how I would do it, being sure to make sure everything is cleaned and flux is applied.

 

One thing I have found about wire nuts is that they work best when the wirenut threads engage EVERY conductor. With 4+ conductors, this can sometimes be tricky.

 

Ok, I was just checking on the voltage changes because we have a Geothermal unit that causes the lights to dim slightly when it kicks on.

I had checked with our Electric Comp and they said the voltage drop was within spec.

Here is what he said exactly;

I just double checked the design for your service. It was installed within the voltage drop and flicker guidelines set by the PSC of Wisconsin. PSC sets a limit on the utility to 4% flicker. This assumes a 100 amp inrush. Based on our design we calculate our portion of your flicker is 3.1% and the difference of what you calculated (123.2-116.7)/123.2 = 5.3% 5.3%-3.1%=2.1% is your inside wiring and the additional starting amps of the Geo unit.

 

 

As far as checking the resistance between the wall switch hot and breaker, I have no problems trying this but how can I measure this when the distance between the two locations is about 50+ feet away?

 

 

Also, I think I remember why the reason for the yellow wire. It is actually only on Insteon devices around the house since the switches are completely separate from any electrical outlet and the outlets have the normal red/black color scheme.