no clue Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 I am replacing three switches in a 5 gang box in my house. The 3 switches are on a circuit that is on a separate panel in my detached garage and control 3 different garage lights. The two remaining switches stay live when I turn off the circuit for the garage lights. The 3 garage lights are being fed by two electrical cables coming into the box. Each has a white, black, and ground wire. The line wire is white and all 3 switches use this wire. Each switch has another wire that goes to the 3 remaining black - black - and white wire with black tape around it. The line wire (tested hot) connects to the line for each Insteon but I'm not sure how to wire the rest. Are the 3 remaining wires all load wires? If so, what do I do about the neutral connection? There are neutrals in the box but those go to a different circuit which is also probably on a different panel in the house. My electrical skills are limited as is obvious but I am hoping someone will understand what is going on here and can tell me before I call an electrician. I plan on using a dual mode switch here to help bridge the house and garage.
LeeG Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 I suggest calling an electrician. Line should never be White. I suspect what you are reading as hot is actually feeding through the light fixture and is not actually a Line wire. The Line/Neutral feed is probably going to the light fixture with the black/white at the switch simply switching the Line to the light. This might be verified by removing the light bulb from the fixture. If this is correct the wiring needs to be retasked to provide unswitched Line/Neutral at the switch locations and probably another wire run from the light fixture to the switch or use an InLineLinc at the light fixture. EDIT: If you chose to look into this further yourself go to the lighting fixture and look for a Line/Neutral feed from the breaker panel. If this is found to be the way the wiring was done (not uncommon) then a decision has to made as to whether additional wiring can be easily run between the light fixture and the switch location. If that is not practical then use an InLineLinc at the light fixture and retask the wires going to the switch location to be unswitched Line/Neutral to power an Insteon switch that is linked to the InLineLinc.
no clue Posted February 4, 2012 Author Posted February 4, 2012 I suggest calling an electrician. Line should never be White. I suspect what you are reading as hot is actually feeding through the light fixture and is not actually a Line wire. The Line/Neutral feed is probably going to the light fixture with the black/white at the switch simply switching the Line to the light. This might be verified by removing the light bulb from the fixture. If this is correct the wiring needs to be retasked to provide unswitched Line/Neutral at the switch locations and probably another wire run from the light fixture to the switch or use an InLineLinc at the light fixture. EDIT: If you chose to look into this further yourself go to the lighting fixture and look for a Line/Neutral feed from the breaker panel. If this is found to be the way the wiring was done (not uncommon) then a decision has to made as to whether additional wiring can be easily run between the light fixture and the switch location. If that is not practical then use an InLineLinc at the light fixture and retask the wires going to the switch location to be unswitched Line/Neutral to power an Insteon switch that is linked to the InLineLinc. Thanks for the quick reply. The white wire being the line is the main thing that threw me. I thought since it tested hot and was the one that all three switches were wired to, that would be the line. The other three wires all tested 0 volts when I did a ground to each wire test. The fact that this is a detached garage makes this extremely difficult to run another wire without a lot of digging. I will call an electrician and look into the inlinelinc.
oberkc Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 The 3 garage lights are being fed by two electrical cables coming into the box. Each has a white, black, and ground wire. The line wire is white and all 3 switches use this wire. Each switch has another wire that goes to the 3 remaining black - black - and white wire with black tape around it. So each of three fixture boxes has two cables, each with two conductors plus ground. Each of the three are controlled separately, and by a single switch. Each switch has connected to is a black and white cable? Some of the white cables have tape around them. This is starting to sound a lot like a switch loop for each of the three fixtures. Line should never be White. I believe is is common, even standard, to use white (remarked as black) for the line connection in a switch loop. Black is typically the return to the fixture. Agree? Are the 3 remaining wires all load wires? If you have a white wire with black tape around it connected to all three switches, then the other wires are the load. Yes. This would be connected to the red wire of the insteon switch. The problem will be finding a neutral from this circuit. If I understand correctly, you don't have one in this switch location. I have found it often extremely difficult to describe wiring in words. I am hoping you can draw something up and insert the image or attach a file showing your wiring.
LeeG Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 Could be the electrician violated code and used a White wire for Line but I don't think so. Smarthome sells a 2-wire kit for just such situations. Includes an InLineLinc to be installed at the light fixture with an Insteon switch in the jbox that has nothing attached to the red load wire. The InLineLinc is controlled by linking the Insteon switch to the InLineLinc.
no clue Posted February 4, 2012 Author Posted February 4, 2012 So each of three fixture boxes has two cables, each with two conductors plus ground. Each of the three are controlled separately, and by a single switch. Each switch has connected to is a black and white cable? Some of the white cables have tape around them. This is starting to sound a lot like a switch loop for each of the three fixtures. I believe is is common, even standard, to use white (remarked as black) for the line connection in a switch loop. Black is typically the return to the fixture. Agree? If you have a white wire with black tape around it connected to all three switches, then the other wires are the load. Yes. This would be connected to the red wire of the insteon switch. The problem will be finding a neutral from this circuit. If I understand correctly, you don't have one in this switch location. I believe you explained it perfectly. It sounds like I don't have a neutral. I am going to call an electrician to take a look and verify or see if there is some way to hook these up. The good news is I have since added 4 new switches to my main house and they have successfully made the "jump" from the garage to the house via RF. I was worried the distance might be too much.
Brian H Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 I have a switch loop where the AC line in the fixture is tied to the white of a 2 wire cable to the switch. Then the black in the two wire is tied to the load inside the fixture. So white is not always a Neutral. The black tape on the white wire also would indicate it maybe a line feed. Thing maybe completely different now from when my house was built in the late 1950's.
oberkc Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 I have a switch loop where the AC line in the fixture is tied to the white of a 2 wire cable to the switch. Then the black in the two wire is tied to the load inside the fixture. So white is not always a Neutral. I believe that, until the most recent NEC update, this was EXACTLY how the code prescribed. Black is always supposed to the the switched return. White (reidentified) is the supply from the fixture. Latest NEC update now requires neutral in all switch locations so I assume the need to use white as a line is eliminated.
hoopty Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 I had one of these circuits and after consulting an electrician, ended up figuring out which was line and which was load (white wasn't marked w/ black tape), wiring up the switch appropriately, and tying the neutral (white) and ground (bare) on the switch to the ground coming into the box. It is my understanding that in this configuration, you only really need the neutral wire connected to get the Insteon signal to the switch. The bare and neutrals tie together in the panel anyway and the bare should feed your switch the signals. This configuration is working just fine for me.
LeeG Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 hoopty If the Insteon switch White wire and the bare wire are connected to the Green wire ground that is against code and should be changed. If something happens and the insurance company finds that type of wiring your insurance will not cover the loss. NEVER share the White Neutral across different Line feeds. That can overload the neutral and be a fire hazard. Lee
oberkc Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 NEVER share the White Neutral across different Line feeds. +1! If the Insteon switch White wire and the bare wire are connected to the Green wire ground that is against code and should be changed. +1!
hoopty Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 If the Insteon switch White wire and the bare wire are connected to the Green wire ground that is against code and should be changed. I was thinking that you only needed neutral hooked up to get control signals, but I guess in this case you are also powering the switch itself via the neutral and therefore current would be flowing across the ground. Am I understanding this correctly? I did consult an electrician, but probably didn't take into account the fact that the switch draws some power... I found the kits here: http://www.smarthome.com/_/ProductResults.aspx?Ntt=2474 Ironically, they're actually cheaper than the switch I put in originally.
LeeG Posted February 4, 2012 Posted February 4, 2012 Correct. Wired Insteon devices are 120V (except for the 240V variants) devices that contain electronics which generate and react to powerline signals even when there is nothing connected to the red load wire.
no clue Posted February 5, 2012 Author Posted February 5, 2012 Thanks for the replies, I am going to call an electrician first thing in the morning. I have been moving on to less challenging switches and only attempting the ones that looked straightforward. This morning, I was replacing an on/off switch in my bathroom with an Insteon dimmer. I found the box had 3 sets of wires coming in (white. black. ground on each). All white neutrals were wired together. The remaining 3 blacks had two wires at the top of the switch (one inserted into the clip at the top and one looped around the screw) and the remaining black wire was inserted into the clip on the bottom. I tested each black with the switch in the off position and the top two wires were both hot. The black wire on the bottom tested 0 volts and I thought this was the load for my bathroom light. I wired the neutral into the bundled whites and the Insteon red wire to the load. The top two wires were wired to the line on the Insteon dimmer. I turned on the breaker and tested the Insteon dimmer and it worked fine as far as turning on and dimming. I linked it to the ISY-99i without problem but it wouldn't respond to commands. I also noticed that my bedroom light attached to a dimmer would not dim or turn off. I took the Insteon switch out and put everything back together the way I found it (at least the way I think I found it) and the bathroom light still works ok but the bedroom light on the dimmer is still on full brightness and won't dim or turn off. Did I get something wrong here when I wired the Insteon switch. I thought I pushed the load for the bathroom light away from the other two blacks. I attached a couple of images.
oberkc Posted February 5, 2012 Posted February 5, 2012 Notice how the white wire attached to the switch has some tape around it? I believe that is intended to remark the white wire as hot (switched, in this case). Regarding the two black wires connected to the switch, one is a supply, the other is a continutation of the supply to another location. I would expect that if you connect the two black to your switch black, the remarked white to the switch red, and switch white to the white bundle, you should be ready to go.
no clue Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 Notice how the white wire attached to the switch has some tape around it? I believe that is intended to remark the white wire as hot (switched, in this case). Regarding the two black wires connected to the switch, one is a supply, the other is a continutation of the supply to another location. I would expect that if you connect the two black to your switch black, the remarked white to the switch red, and switch white to the white bundle, you should be ready to go. I think the white wire you are referring to is actually a black wire with a white paint splotch. I think that one is the load for the bathroom light. I was wondering if maybe it was wired correctly but something happened to the bedroom light dimmer when I was turning the breaker on and off multiple times. That wouldn't explain why I can't control the insteon switch though.
oberkc Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I think that one is the load for the bathroom light. Yes, this is the way I see it. I was wondering if maybe it was wired correctly but something happened to the bedroom light dimmer when I was turning the breaker on and off multiple times. That wouldn't explain why I can't control the insteon switch though. Agreed, this would not explain lack of control. Are you confident in the connection? What is the load on the insteon switch? Do you have access points or other dual band devices to couple the legs of your electrical system? From where are you trying to control the insteon switch?
no clue Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 I think that one is the load for the bathroom light. Yes, this is the way I see it. I was wondering if maybe it was wired correctly but something happened to the bedroom light dimmer when I was turning the breaker on and off multiple times. That wouldn't explain why I can't control the insteon switch though. Agreed, this would not explain lack of control. Are you confident in the connection? What is the load on the insteon switch? Do you have access points or other dual band devices to couple the legs of your electrical system? From where are you trying to control the insteon switch? The load on the insteon switch is for the bathroom light. The only thing I tried for control was from the ISY-99i admin panel. No issues at all when linking but I just couldn't affect it in any way from the admin panel. Unless I accidentally mixed up one of the blacks, I can't figure what has changed. The two blacks from the top of the switch were already both hot when connected to the previous switch (when switch was off) so all I did was connect the line wire from the insteon to it. One was the line wire and I assume the other goes to the bedroom dimmer.
oberkc Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 This is a pretty simple wiring problem, and it sounds as if you have it all correct. I am assuming that all connections are tight (not always as easy as it sounds), The only possibility that I can think of is the type of light that is in your bathroom. Is it something other than incandescent? Does it have any power supplie? I am still hoping for an answer to my question regarding access points or dual-band devices. Do you have the legs of your power system coupled? Where is your PLM installed and what other devices (UPS? Surge Suppressor, power supplies?) are on that circuit?
no clue Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 This is a pretty simple wiring problem, and it sounds as if you have it all correct. I am assuming that all connections are tight (not always as easy as it sounds), The only possibility that I can think of is the type of light that is in your bathroom. Is it something other than incandescent? Does it have any power supplie? I am still hoping for an answer to my question regarding access points or dual-band devices. Do you have the legs of your power system coupled? Where is your PLM installed and what other devices (UPS? Surge Suppressor, power supplies?) are on that circuit? The bathroom fixture is a 2 bulb incandescent. It wasn't on a dimmer before but I don't think it would be a problem. I'm sorry I must have missed the question about the access points and UPS issues. I do have surge devices on the same circuit as the PLM. It hasn't caused any issues up to this point and I have installed about 10 -12 insteon devices so far; both in the detached garage where the ISY-99i/PLM resides and in the house. I have been adding access points as I go along and find a need for them. I have also added many dual band switches. So far, I have 4 access points and at least two dual band devices. I have about 4 more dual band switches to install. I'm thinking about giving the bathroom fixture another crack and capping off the supply to the bedroom light to see if that takes care of the control problem. I have an electrician coming this afternoon to take a look at the original issue and possibly this one. I am also going to knock out as many others as possible to rule out other issues before he gets here. Thanks for all of your help. This has been a really good learning experience so far.
no clue Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 Ok, so I just introduced the Insteon switch back into the mix. At first, the admin console notified me it had lost communication with it so I deleted the switch and added it back in. Now I am able to control it so maybe it was a loose connection? I thought I had everything nice and tight before but this time, I trimmed the neutral insulation back just a bit and bundled everything back together. Unfortunately, I still have the issue with the bedroom lights remaining on at all times. I was able to determine that several other of my adjacent room lights feed off of the same supply wire (that goes off of the bathroom light switch to the master bedroom switch) and they are all functioning normally. I think I am going to go off the assumption that during all of the on/offs at the breaker panel, it somehow screwed up the old dimmer switch. That old switch is on my list for replacements so I will find out soon.
oberkc Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Unfortunately, I still have the issue with the bedroom lights remaining on at all times. Is this a mechanical (non-insteon) dimmer? If so, there is little that can be done to have miswired this as a result of switch replacement in the bathroom. Given that it is ON, I suspect switch failure. Now I am able to control it so maybe it was a loose connection? Possibly. It is also possibly a communication issue caused by other factors. Insteon communications, in my experience, do not fail catastrophically. Sometimes, communication can be intermittent. Given your existence of surge suppressors, I would not take lack of evidence thus far as signs of robust communication. I would experiment around a bit, temporarily removing these devices to see if there is any improvement. I would also take advantage of the ISY scene test to see if this gives any indication of problems. It is also good that you have a variety of access points and dual band devices. Given the quantity you have, odds are that you have at least one on each leg of your electrical system. Still, if you have not done so, I would make sure this is the case by following the steps in the manual.
no clue Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 The electrician came and diagnosed both issues. Regarding the original issue, there were no neutrals in the 5 gang outlet as everyone here thought except for the ones that are on a different circuit. He seemed to think it would be no problem using those neutrals for my issue but I told him I was reluctant to do that based on what was said here. We went out to the detached garage and found the box that has all of the neutrals tied together before they come to the house. I suppose I can use the in-line lincs for those. On the second issue, it turned out I had another switch part of a 3 way switch that I was unaware of. I am going to install another dimmer on that one and everything should be good to go. Thanks again for all of the help!
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