Frustrated.....Elk M1gold and a temperature detector

[Spartan]

Hello everyone..........newbie here go slow on the beatings!

 

I have an M1gold installed at my business. What I want to do is get a phone call when the boiler is running because it's so old, that it sometimes forgets to fire up....just like it's owner.

 

What I did was install a normally closed bimetal heat contact. It's a simple sensor that when heated, snaps open and and breaks the circuit. Then it closes again when it cools. It mounted on the boiler flue.

 

I have set it as non-alarm, EOL supervised. When I first tried it, it worked with these rules......

 

WHENEVER Boiler Room Temp (Zn 15) is NOT SECURE

THEN DIAL xxxx (x-xxx-xxx-xxxx) AND ANNOUNCE MISCELLANEOUS 10 (vm248)

 

So I wrote some rules for it so it doesn't terrorize me day and night.

 

WHENEVER Area 1 is Armed Away

AND Boiler Room Temp (Zn 15) is NOT SECURE

AND TIME OF DAY IS LATER THEN 1:00 AM

AND TIME OF DAY IS EARLIER THEN 2:00 AM

THEN DIAL xxxx (x-xxx-xxx-xxxx) AND ANNOUNCE MISCELLANEOUS 10 (vm248)

THEN BYPASS Boiler Room Temp (Zn15)

 

Then waited for the phone call and NOTHING happened. Is there a sequence to the time? Or did it get confused with the bypass?

 

Is there a way to time out a zone after it calls you? Let's say I want it to ring me once and then go dormant for 8 hours? Because the boiler is set on on timer, it will come on for an hour at midnight and then another hour during the morning. I can cheat by mounting a second contact with it's own rules, BUT, is there a better way?

 

OR..is there a way to check a zone from the phone? The only way I know now is to buy an ELK temperature detector and simply ask it what the temperature is. Since I want to automate the start up of some of my equipment at work and they work past the Elk temperature range, I need to have some way of knowing if the equipment reached operating temperature.

 

HELP!

[apostolakisl]

That rule will only fire is someone arms the system between 1 and 2 am. In Elk, the trigger is the first rule. Everything else is only checked if the the first thing happens.

[Spartan]

That rule will only fire is someone arms the system between 1 and 2 am. In Elk, the trigger is the first rule. Everything else is only checked if the the first thing happens.

 

Okay, I can change that rule and dropped "whenever armed" because by default, it's always armed at that time.

 

Thank you.

 

Is there a way to bring back the sensor so I get a call at 9 am? Short of mounting ANOTHER sensor? Can I have two lines running into the same sensor and then make two rules?

[apostolakisl]

You can still keep that line, just don't make it first. The act of arming the system triggers that rule when "is armed away" is in the first line. If it is an "and" statement, it only needs to be in the armed state, it doesn't have to become armed at that time.

 

And I don't understand what you mean by your question "bring back the sensor"

[Spartan]

 

And I don't understand what you mean by your question "bring back the sensor"

 

"Bring back" as in making active again. The last line in my original rules was to bypass it. Unless I'm wrong, that means it wont call me until I re-activate the alarm.

 

My problem is that if it's very cold outside and the boiler doesn't turn on, I can lose some of the glues that are sensitive to freezing and/or my boiler waterlines can freeze. All I need to know is that it turned on even once over those periods.

 

BTW...does "giasou patrida" make any sense? Or am I misreading the name?

[apostolakisl]

I don't think you should bypass the zone at all.

 

If you make the first line

 

"Whenever zone boiler temp is violated"

 

Then the rule will only trigger once and send you an email when it goes from not violated to violated.

 

If you want it to check at a specific time for a violation, then make that the first line of the rule.

 

Whenever the time is 1am

and zone boiler temp is violated

 

If you tell me in plain English what you want it to do, I would be happy to tell you how to make Elk do it.

[Spartan]

What I want to do is....

 

1.......Get a phone call that the boiler is running between 1am and 1:30am. Every day.

 

2........Get a phone call that the boiler is running between 9am and 9:30am on Sunday and Saturday. If not possible, I'll take "everyday".

 

What I have connected to it a simple contact that pops open and cuts the circuit when the flue reaches 150F. Then I don't want it to keep calling after it called me once because the boiler cycles for about 2 hours.

 

I went over earlier tonight and wrote....

 

WHENEVER Boiler Room Temp (Zn 15) BECOMES NOT SECURE

AND TIME OF DAY IS LATER THEN 1:00 AM

AND TIME OF DAY IS EARLIER THEN 1:30 AM

THEN DIAL xxxx (xxxxxxxxxxx) AND ANNOUNCE Miscellaneous 10

 

Without the time constraints, it calls me. With them....nothing.

 

~~~~~~~

 

EDIT: It didn't work.

[apostolakisl]

Your program as written requires that the zone become not secure in between the times. If it were continuously off or continuously on during that period of time you won't get a message. I don't know your boilers typical cycle time, but it could easily be more than a half of hour on or half hour of off.

 

Might I suggest that you approach this differently.

 

Set a counter to count down for say an hour one minute at a time.

 

Whenever every 1 minute

and counter boiler is not 0

then subtract 1

 

Then reset that counter every time the zone violates.

 

Whenever boiler zone becoms not secure

Then set boiler counter to 60

 

Then, at whatever time you would like the call right a rule

 

Whenever the time is 1am

and the day of week is mtwtf

and boiler counter is 0

then call me

 

Whenever the time is 9am

and the day of week is ss

and boiler counter is 0

then call me

 

The idea being that if the boiler heat detector has not "popped" on in the hour preceding 1am, it will call you at 1am (or 9am on the weekends). You may need to adjust the times based on your boiler cycling interval. Frankly, I think this is going to be a little bit of an issue for you since on warm days you will be getting a phone call since the boiler would not need to turn on.

 

Might I suggest instead you put a temp sensor in the room and have it call you if it drops below some set temp. They also make freeze detectors which warn you when it gets near freezing.

 

EDIT: I thought about a few tweeks to make it a little better

 

Whenever every 1 minute

and counter boiler is not 0

then subtract 1

 

Whenever boiler zone becomes secure (as opposed to not secure)

Then set boiler counter to 60

 

Whenever the time is 1am

and the day of week is mtwtf

and boiler counter is 0

and boiler zone is secure (added line)

then call me

 

Whenever the time is 9am

and the day of week is ss

and boiler counter is 0

and boiler zone is secure (added line)

then call me

 

This is assuming the zone is not secure when >150. By resetting when zone becomes secure, you are starting the count down when the boiler shuts off. Then adding the line "and boiler zone is secure" prevents you from getting a call while the boiler is on. The sum total is that, you will get a call at 1am if the last time the boiler shut off was more than 60 minutes earlier and the boiler is not currently on.

[Spartan]

WOW! This appeared simple but it lands up a LOT tougher then I thought.

 

Before I do what you suggested.....

 

*To avoid the counter, what if I change the configuration from EOL supervised to normally closed?

 

*Is the boiler then "not secure" any time the circuit is open?

 

The boiler has it's own timer. It only comes on at 1am and shuts off at 2am. Same thing in the mornings on weekends. It cycles for one hour in the morning and by the afternoon, I usually pop in to check everything out and turn it on for another cycle.

 

I have to resolve this because there are going to be other high temperature contacts to see if hot presses are turned on. What I'm hoping to do is turn on the presses on at 6am for 8am shift. I get a call by 7am that the presses have reached a certain threshold (contacts of various range available) and I'm good. Otherwise I have to scramble to get to work.

 

In the end, I may have to bite the bullet and get temperature sensors then make custom, high temperature probes that can take 300F. Contacts are $2, the temperature sensors and custom probes, $200. I wont give up that easily.......

 

I've had the system for a week and it's great....other then what is happening with the boiler contact.

 

THANK YOU for taking the time to help me.

[apostolakisl]

That info would have been helpful. I assumed you had a thermostat that turned on/off as needed.

 

If it is program to always turn on at 1am and stay on for an hour, then just a single rule

 

Whenever it is 1:15am (I gave it 15 minutes for the flu to get hot)

And zone boiler is not secure (I assume the zone becomes not secure when hot)

Then call me (to say it is on)

 

 

And/OR

 

Whenever it is 1:15am

And zone boiler is secure

Then call me (to say it is not on)

 

Using an eol resistor has no impact on the logic or rules. It is there to detect an accidental short in the wire and would create a trouble code on your system if a short ocurred (which you could set to call you if you wanted).

 

You also can write programs on your ISY (I assume you have one since you are posting here). ISY can't call you however, but it can email you.

[Spartan]

 

Whenever it is 1:15am (I gave it 15 minutes for the flu to get hot)

And zone boiler is not secure (I assume the zone becomes not secure when hot)

Then call me (to say it is on)

 

.

 

 

Your assumptions are correct except.....I'm not sure the boiler would be over the minimum temperature to open the contact.

 

Can I go between time because I'm not sure if the boiler would hit the temperature range of the contact? Otherwise I have to find contacts with much lower range to make sure it stayed open. You would be surprised how fast a flue cools down if the boiler is off.

 

 

 

EDIT: That would be PERFECT for the machines. I can set it up and have it call me if the temperatures does not hit the contact tripping range. And unlike the boiler flue, the plates do NOT cool down in several minutes.

[apostolakisl]

I don't know what to tell you except that you simply need to turn the boiler on and watch how long it takes for the sensor to pop. I would think the flu would heat up very fast, but it would depend on where on the flu you attached it and if it had insulation or a double wall with air in between.

[Spartan]

DONE!

 

Besides my screwed up programming, I couldn't find a bi-metal contact that would be above room temperature so it doesn't go off in the summer and low enough that a decent temperature rise would set it off. Searched high and low in the speciality stores......and of all places, Home Despots solved it. They have replacement electric hot water thermostats that are normally closed AND have a heat range from 90F to 150F. So now, I'll attach it to the out going hot water pipe, work out the heat-up delay and have the ELK call me.

 

With the exact time programming and variable heat thresholds, I can also attach it to various presses and if they have not passed the temperature threshold at a certain time in the morning, ELK can call me.

 

Again and again......THANK YOU for your help.