Illusion Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I have an I/O linc that has twice in the last year had its relay node set on by my 2.30am query all program. Anyone else ever seen this? I am going to factory reset the module, but I doubt that will change my experience in this case. This I/O linc is connected to my HVAC system and waking up cold unexpectedly is bad, but I sure am glad that it is not connected to my garage door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Look to some other node that has changed Status as a result of the Query rather than the Query command actually turning On the I/O Linc Relay. If an inbound message does not reach the PLM the ISY will have wrong Status for that device. A Query will correct this Status which can drive a Program at 2:30 AM even though that device did not actually change state at 2:30 AM. A Query of the I/O Linc Sensor will change its Status if Trigger Reverse is used but that would not be an intermittent situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 There were only a couple of nodes that changed as a result of the query. Two KPL secondary buttons that do not relate to this device or any ISY programs. Further, No ISY program directly controls this IOLinc relay node, and the only scenes this relay node is a party to are security clean up scenes that are only ever turned off by the ISY when I am away. I am pretty sure the query is activating the device. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Everything I look at supports that belief, or at least does not offer evidence to the contrary. I am certainly open to other explanations, I just can't find one that fits the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 If the Query command is turning on the I/O Linc Relay the device is defective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Illusion, I thought LeeGs explanation was very insightful. If you are losing confidence in this IOLinc you could consider removing it from all scenes it is part of. You could then make a program that sends a query to it very often ( maybe every 10 minutes?) for diagnostic purposes. You could then monitor it to be sure it is malfunctioning over a few days or weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 I have factory reset it. If it triggers on again, I will replace it. If I replace it, I will add it back as a test device and see if it ever turns on again without being a member of any scenes. I do not think the query test would work here. I believe it is because I am doing a query all, where a large system (over 250 nodes) is being queried. Lots of traffic, lots of comms, lots of opportunity for a command to get corrupted. I have never had the module fail on a manual query where it is the only module queried. I could do lots of queries of my entire system with a program. Something for me to think about. I have made a couple of watchdog notification programs to alert me if it happens again. I will say this: I personally would never use Insteon in mission critical applications. I have had multiple instances where devices turned on where they should not, where the events are supposedly not possible in the Insteon protocol. See viewtopic.php?p=39424#p39424 for a long dialog about another case of errant on that was never understood. Solved by chance and voodo. I love Insteon, but no garage door operation, no door locks, no breathing machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hello Illusion, After I wrote the last post I thought more about it and I agree with your thoughts on lots of traffic as the possible cause. If lots of traffic is the cause then it would be more of a system wide issue and message corruption, as opposed to an individual defective unit I would think? I also totally agree with not using Insteon for mission critical devices, like heating and cooling I just purchased a Ezflora and was already thinking about adding redundant off commands to assure that a zone is never left on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 I thought the EzFlora internally would shut off a zone for safety after a period of time. No? I can't go without my HVAC system being automated Demand based pricing of electricity, maximizing savings and minimizing cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELA Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I thought the EzFlora internally would shut off a zone for safety after a period of time. No? That would be a great feature and I hope it has it? I just got the unit and have yet to download a full manual. All the docs I have seen thus far was a quick setup and a command set. I am intending to use it with ISY programs. I do not know yet how internal sequences vs. external controls all work together or separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 The EZFlora has a maximum Zone On timer for each Zone. These values can be set with the ISY Set Options button. The timers are the failsafe in case a command is missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Hello, I wanted to ensure that this discussion is NOT about the *All Off* function correct? Teken . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 I put tracking programs on all my other IOLincs and I have a different one that appears to be getting set on by my query all program as well. Very infrequently mind you, like twice in 100 query alls. I have not had the original module switch on from the Query all since factory reset and restore. Will keep an eye on it. I am not yet going to mess with this other module as it is not a big problem if it gets switched on incorrectly. It would get corrected by the next Weatherbug update moments after incorrectly switching on from a query all. I am going to see if I can find some continuity of parameters that could contribute to the anomaly I am seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 I still have occasions of an IOLinc getting set on by a query. No consistency of conditions I can find. Then yesterday a friend called me. He wanted to know how his relay nodes of his IOLincs in the garage are getting turned on sometimes. I did the normal troubleshooting with him. Scene analysis, program analysis etc... Tough one as nothing but the ISY is linked to the relay node. He does not use the relay node. He only noticed that they were on because the set LED lights up when the relay node is on. He keeps turning them off with the ISY, but then weeks or months later he will notice one or both of them on again. Finally, we checked the log. 100% of the time the only record we have of device status changes is when he turned them off and immediately after his 3a query all. His query all is turning his IOLincs on as well. As I cannot seem to find a way to stop this in my system, I think I am going to disable all instances of system query I can. (query all, security programs.. etc) Maybe I am a freak case, but I have several instances of devices errantly turning on. 1. The case of the switch ghosting on: viewtopic.php?p=39424#p39424 2. This wierd IOLinc thing detailed here. 3. And a brand new one. Explanation below.. I just put a Fanlinc in my bedroom. I built a fan auto program set that ties the fan speed to bedroom temperature. Now randomly when the speed is set sometimes by the ISY program the light comes on. Like at 2am and stuff. One night it happened 4 times. Good thing I live alone! I have definitively established that this happens in response to the Fan Speed High program running. But not often. Right now I am not using any variables to determine what the fan speed currently is, so every time the t-stat changes temp, one of the fan speed programs run if the fan auto folder is true. So most of the time the program is simply trying to set fan speed high, even though the fan is already running on high. This is so I can have lots of speed set attempts to try to figure out how to stop the error. So maybe 1 out of 100 times the light will turn on. I would have thought with the fanlinc using I2CS this should be nearly impossible, but I guess not. EDIT: To save LeeG the posting time... Yes linc tables verified! All good there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Was the Relay verify as actually being Off before the Query. If the Relay had turned On for whatever reason the 3AM Query would change the Relay status to On as that would be the current Relay status. The change in status at 3AM does not mean the Query turned the Relay On, only that the Relay was On at 3AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Agreed. In the case of my friend, I have no way to know that. But it sure does sound like the same thing I have been experiencing. But in my case, I can say with near 100% certain, that the relays were off prior to the query. I have been watching this closely since July this year. One of the relays is connected to my HVAC system. It is kinda hard to miss that one being on when it should not be. The only time I have ever seen the relay in an unexpected mode is after a query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The HVAC turns On at 3AM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Well, that is where the less than 100% comes in. I know that is was not on in the special de-humidify mode that that IOLinc relay controls when I went to bed at 11p. But is was on at 2.33am (my query time) And the other one is a sprinkler inhibit relay. I know that it was not on at 7am cause the sprinklers were on, but then got notification that is was on as my query all from program 'away' ran as I was leaving. But even if I sat there and watched them, there is no way I can be 100% certain that the relay turned on from the query. It could turn on 1/16s before the query, completely unrelated, but I would have no way to detect that. I personally am satisfied that in my case, the relays are on occasion turning on as a result of a query all from my ISY. In the months I have been watching it, I have not one case where the errant on could not be directly correlated with a query all, and not one case where I could relate the errant on to anything else, despite all my investigative efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Since anyone using the I/O Linc in a garage application would find the garage door open after a Query it is not a common or wide spread situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illusion Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Agreed. 2 of my IOLincs have never been set on by a query for sure. One is a crazy loud siren, and the other would shut all the water to my house off. I would not miss either of those events. I seem to be special. The 'control on' (see link above) is also supposedly not possible, and I exhausted myself on that one over the course of a year. I do have a large system with 266 nodes, and 667 PLM links. I just thought I should document it so if it does come up for somebody else there is a record of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewdog Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I am having a very similar issue. I have had an I/OLinc relay come periodically. This is more of an annoyance than anything else, because it is not connected to anything .... it's just the light on the I/O is on. Now I have a front porch light connected to a ToggleLinc Dimmer that has been turned off before going to bed. Periodically, in the morning, I will find the porch light on, which was the case today. I searched through the log and found that the device was on 1 second after my Query All Program had run. Now this is more than an annoyance .... A side note: this device can only be turned on individually through the ISY. The local switch that controls this light turns on a scene which controls all my exterior lights. What other diagnostic steps do I need to take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 How was the front porch light turned Off? Was it with a Scene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewdog Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 It was turned off by the scene, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Is the front porch light visually verified to be Off when the Scene is invoked? It sounds like the front porch light intermittently does not actually react to the Scene Off. The Query finds the front porch light On and marks it as such. I suggest running Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Using the Admin Console turn the front porch light On/Off (not with the Scene) several times and post the event trace. It will show how reliable comm. is to the front porch light in general. Scene On/Off commands have no ACK and no retry so if there is any marginal comm. to a particular device leaving a device On or Off can occur using a Scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewdog Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 To clarify, the front porch light was turned off by the scene (another controller) and not locally. And since I've been having this intermittent issue, I actually have been visually confirming the front porch light has been turned off with the rest of the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 This can be difficult to identify. The Query is not physically turning the ToggleLinc On. The Query finds the ToggleLinc On and marks it On in the ISY. There are a few things to look for. Do a search of My Programs with Find for the ToggleLinc name. Another would be to factory reset the ToggleLinc followed by a Restore Device. This will eliminate the possibility the device has an X10 address assigned and is reacting to noise on the powerline. It also eliminates the possibility of a corrupted link record causing the device to react to a Scene it was not programmed for. EDIT: Also check the Membership list to see if the ToggleLinc is a Responder/Controller in an unexpected Scene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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