Motion Sensors & Scenes

[wswartz]

Hello,

 

I have a motion sensor that is in a scene with a dimmer. During the day, I'd like the light to come on at 100%. At night, I'd like it to come on at 50%. I have a program that changes the scenes (if day, 100%, else, 50%). but when the MS is triggered, day or night, it comes on at 100%.

 

I assume this is happening because the MS is sending an ON signal which is interpreted as, "come on at 100%." I know I could do this in a program (if day and motion, 100%, else, 50%). Is there any way to do this using scenes rather than a program? With a scene, the light comes on with motion and is near instantaneous, but there's a slight delay when using a program.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[arw01]

can you show us a screen print of your scene setup with the sliders etc..

[LeeG]

wswartz

 

The Adjust Scene statement should specify the Motion Sensor - Sensor node in the 'In Scene' parameter and the dimmer node name in the 'Set' parameter. If the Scene name was specified in the 'In Scene' parameter the On Level for the Scene name (when a Program uses the Scene name) is affected. To change how the dimmer responds to the Motion Sensor - Sensor node it has to be identified as the Controller in the 'In Scene' parameter.

[wswartz]

LeeG:

 

THANKS! That worked just as I was looking for. Here is the code I used if anyone else is interested:

If
       From    12:30:00AM
       To      Sunrise - 45 minutes (same day)

Then
       In Scene 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.MS.Closet-Sensor' Set 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.SD.Closet' 50% (On Level)
       In Scene 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.MS.Closet-Sensor' Set 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.SD.Closet' 4.5 Sec (Ramp Rate)

Else
       In Scene 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.MS.Closet-Sensor' Set 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.SD.Closet' 100% (On Level)
       In Scene 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.MS.Closet-Sensor' Set 'House / Main Floor / Master Bedroom / Master.SD.Closet' 0.1 Sec (Ramp Rate)

[wswartz]

With further testing, I have a follow-up question.

 

Say it's night and you trip the MS; the light goes to 50%. You want the light to be brighter so you hit the switch to take it to 100%. The moment the MS senses movement, it goes back to 50%. Any way to prevent this from happening?

 

Bill

[arw01]

Just a thought form a fellow newbie, but I would set the on level with a program and not the motion sensor trigger itself. I would just use the motion to turn on the scene.

 

Then the program can adjust the level at the times it is supposed to. You could put a test to see if the light is on already, and if it is, then put a wait for x minutes before you adjust the scene. I do not know, if adjusting the scene level while the light is on would affect the light. I have not tried that yet.

[oberkc]

Any way to prevent this from happening?

 

Yes, but this would most easily be accomplished by using a program to trigger motion lights, rather than a scene.

[Vyrolan]

Say it's night and you trip the MS; the light goes to 50%. You want the light to be brighter so you hit the switch to take it to 100%. The moment the MS senses movement, it goes back to 50%. Any way to prevent this from happening?

Don't use the "Sensing Mode" option for the motion sensors IMHO. IF you hit the switch to take it to 100%, you are still in the motion sensor's range so it should not be sending any more "On" commands to set it back to 50% until you have left the room, the motion has timed out, and new motion is detected. With the silly "sensing mode" option checked, then it spams On commands constantly and you get the weird behavior you describe. I've not had any situation with sensing mode that worked like one would want.

 

Also, having the motion sensor directly activate the scene for the lights has the very big advantage of turning the lights on much faster than an ISY program. If you use a program, the signals makes it to the PLM then the ISY which runs a program which tells the PLM to send a signal which finally turns on the lights....it can be a noticeable delay over 1s.

[oberkc]

Also, having the motion sensor directly activate the scene for the lights has the very big advantage of turning the lights on much faster than an ISY program. If you use a program, the signals makes it to the PLM then the ISY which runs a program which tells the PLM to send a signal which finally turns on the lights....it can be a noticeable delay over 1s.

 

Thus, the tradeoff. Use scenes when your needs are simple: motion = on always. Use programs when your needs become more sophisticated: motion+time+devicestatus+temperature+date=on else off. The question here is whether the added control of programs is worth the cost in time delay.

 

More my purposes, the silly "sensing" mode works well. I have motion sensors outside. So long as the sensors continue to detect motion, the lights stay on. When the motion sensors stop seeing motion for my defined time period, they go off. I like it.

[Vyrolan]

Thus, the tradeoff. Use scenes when your needs are simple: motion = on always. Use programs when your needs become more sophisticated: motion+time+devicestatus+temperature+date=on else off. The question here is whether the added control of programs is worth the cost in time delay.

Or...just have the Motion Sensor turn them On with a scene but use programs to control turning them off...a bit tricky but doable. I wish the motion sensor had the separate on/off nodes like the triggerlinc does.

 

More my purposes, the silly "sensing" mode works well. I have motion sensors outside. So long as the sensors continue to detect motion, the lights stay on. When the motion sensors stop seeing motion for my defined time period, they go off. I like it.

What you described is exactly the behavior of sensing mode unchecked. Both modes do what you say. With sensing mode checked, it continuously sends more On commands as it continues to see motion...eventually sending a single Off when no motion has been seen for the timeout. Without sensing mode, it sends a single On when motion is first detected and a single Off when no motion has been seen for the timeout. So what you "like" is just the normal function of the Motion Sensor...not sensing mode. As I said, I've yet to see a use case where the continuously sent over and over On commands are of any use...in situations like you describe, they are completely unnecessary and only serve two purposes: causing more insteon traffic, and draining the motion sensor battery from sending them. So I stand by "silly" for sensing mode.

 

Actually, I guess sensing mode could be one convenient way to handle the scene on, programmatic off thing. Set it to On only and sensing mode. It will never send off, so have a program reset the timer each time the On is sent. You'd get instant On from scene and programmatic Off simpler than other workarounds.

[oberkc]

Or...just have the Motion Sensor turn them On with a scene but use programs to control turning them off...a bit tricky but doable.

 

A great option if you are trying to avoid an ON delay, but still limiting regarding ability to apply conditions for when a device responds motion lighting. If, for example, you wish to have motion work only on weekdays (or only during certain times of the day) for some reason, such an approach falls short. Programs offer greater flexibility for defining conditions necessary to trigger responder devices.

 

Take wswartz question for example. Let's say you want to trigger a light and countdown timer to 50% from motion, but only if the light is not already on (or at a different level). I believe that will be very difficult using a scene relationship between the sensor and light. On the other hand, this is relatively trivial from a programmed response.

 

With sensing mode checked, it continuously sends more On commands as it continues to see motion...eventually sending a single Off when no motion has been seen for the timeout.

 

This is the one that I like, actually. I don't use scenes for motion, at all (can live with the delay). I want to restart the countdown at each sensing of motion, whether every second, or less frequent. The non-sensing mode, I understood, would trigger a built-in timer that would continue uninterrupted (regardless of subsequent motion) and send an off command at the end of the time period (again, regardless of subsequent motion). But, since I don't use it, I may be mistaken.

[Vyrolan]

Programs offer greater flexibility for defining conditions necessary to trigger responder devices.

Very true.

 

The non-sensing mode, I understood, would trigger a built-in timer that would continue uninterrupted (regardless of subsequent motion) and send an off command at the end of the time period (again, regardless of subsequent motion).

No, the built-in timer is reset with each subsequent motion. The Off is not sent until no motion for the duration of the configured timeout. The only difference between the two is that Sensing Mode sends out a continuous stream of On commands as motion is sensed rather a single On when motion is first sensed. It seems like all programs just do something when it's switched On (the first On when motion is first sensed) and then something when it switches Off (no motion for duration of timeout). I don't see the value of the continuous stream of On commands...like I realized in the last post, maybe they are useful if you have it in On-only mode.

[oberkc]

It seems like all programs just do something when it's switched On (the first On when motion is first sensed) and then something when it switches Off (no motion for duration of timeout).

 

Only if you put something in both "then" and "else" clauses.

 

I don't see the value of the continuous stream of On commands...like I realized in the last post, maybe they are useful if you have it in On-only mode.

 

In some cases, a stream of "on" commands may be a limiting factor. I have not noticed any problems in my setup. But, all other things being equal, I would rather limit a stream of commands, as you suggest.

[wwat]

wswartz,

 

With further testing, I have a follow-up question.

Say it's night and you trip the MS; the light goes to 50%. You want the light to be brighter so you hit the switch to take it to 100%. The moment the MS senses movement, it goes back to 50%. Any way to prevent this from happening?

Bill

 

You need to set up a few programs to do that (see attached screen shot and sample code). The number of programs determines the light level for when the sensor is triggered. So if you manually hit the switch and set the light to 12% then the code below will change the scene to 15%, when the sensors is triggered it changes the light level to 15%, a change which is bearly noticable. I've created 10 programs for the bathroom and it works well.

 

Its also trivial to change the scene lighting level depending on time of day or whatever you want. You can set it to zero for certain days or certain times, I have it set so it doesn't come on during the day time for example. (see same code below.)

 

Here are the first 2, the first one changes the scene to 5% the second to 15% and so on.

 

SC1-10

If
       Status  'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' > Off
   And Status  'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' < 11%
Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' 5% (On Level)
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

SC11-20

If
       Status  'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' > 10%
   And Status  'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' < 21%
Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' 15% (On Level)
Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

 

 

The following three programs are used to determine the light level at the specified condition. (in this case from 9am to sunset)

 

Folder Conditions for 'Bathroom - Day'

Add conditions to limit when programs in this folder are allowed to run.

 

If
       From     9:00:01AM
       To      Sunset  (same day)
Then
  Allow the programs in this folder to run.

 

Main Bath Day Reset (Program)

If
       Status  'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' is Off
   And Folder  'Bathroom - Day' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' 0% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Main Bath day Scene (Program)

If
       Folder  'Bathroom - Day' is True

Then
       In Scene 'Main Bath MS - Sensor' Set 'Main Bathroom / Main Bath SL - Light' 0% (On Level)

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

This event will only fire at 9:00:00AM because this is when it is when
the Bathroom - Day program is True

[Vyrolan]

It seems like all programs just do something when it's switched On (the first On when motion is first sensed) and then something when it switches Off (no motion for duration of timeout).

 

Only if you put something in both "then" and "else" clauses.

For clarity, I was referring to the actions taken by the Motion Sensor (one switched On and later one switched Off) not the program(s) that respond. I definitely think as you have been pointing out that it's generally multiple programs in all practical uses since you want to override the Off if a switch is manually changed...or whatever other conditions/behaviors/etc you'd like.

[wswartz]

Thanks all for the replies and details on how motion sensors work. I'll try the sensing mode feature and see if that gets it for me. Will also look at adding the suggested programs.

 

Thanks!

 

BIll

[wswartz]

I changed the sensing mode and it's working just as I wanted it to. I can turn up the light now without it going back to it's programmed scene. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Bill