IndyMike Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 The KPL in the wall is an On/Off and it controls a switched outlet... Aka my nightstand lamps. And yes, you are correct. When the load is on (the lamps), signals do not get to the appliancelinc but when the load is off, the appliancelinc works perfectly. Hello mfranzel, If I understand the above correctly, you are using the KPL relay (2486S?) to control a standard duplex outlet. You may very well already know this but, the KPL is not rated to control a duplex outlet. It is rated for "Wired-in incandescent lighting and inductive loads". You could overload the KPL by plugging in an "inappropriate" device at the duplex outlet. If this is the configuration that you are using, please do not try to put a leviton filter between the KPL and the outlet. The leviton filters are only rated at 5 amps.
mfranzel Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 It is actually only controlling a single outlet which has 2 lamps from Bed Bath and Beyond plugged in. I am going to try and get to the store today and see if another brand of CFLs or LED bulbs will do the trick...
IndyMike Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 Sorry, 1 outlet or many makes no difference. It's against code. Whether or not this is a safety issue is debatable. Enough discussion - I'll climb off my high horse. From your description, your CFL's are using the GU24 base. I have not seen LEDs with this base locally. Rather than spending money on new bulbs, you could try plugging your lamps into a filterlinc (assuming you have one). If this solves the problem, you may want to try different bulbs. If it does not, you may have another "unknown" load on the circuit.
mfranzel Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 What is against code? Having a switch control an outlet or having the KPL control the outlet? That is how it was when I moved here... If it matters, it is a single outlet with two places to plug in things but only ONE of the plugs is controlled by the switch. How can this be against code if this is how the place as built? Anyways, you are correct they are GU24 bulbs, I couldn't remember the type. And you are also correct, there are NO other bulbs on the market that use the GU24 base besides CFLs. But that is inly ceiling lights... obviously not lamps I buy at the store. I will try using LED bulbs in the lamps and see what happens. If that doesn't work, I will try different lamps and if that doesn't work then I will purchase a filterlinc.
Brian H Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 Possibly the KPL relay if its rating is not at least 15 amps which is the rating of most outlets. The dual bands are rated at 20 amps but I would have to look for the older power line only ones. Found the 2486S in the Discontinued category. 13 amps, 480 Watts Incandescent. A standard mechanical wall switch can control an outlet as it is rated for 15 amps.
IndyMike Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 Hello mfranzel, If I understand the above correctly, you are using the KPL relay (2486S?) to control a standard duplex outlet. You may very well already know this but, the KPL is not rated to control a duplex outlet. It is rated for "Wired-in incandescent lighting and inductive loads". You could overload the KPL by plugging in an "inappropriate" device at the duplex outlet. If this is the configuration that you are using, please do not try to put a leviton filter between the KPL and the outlet. The leviton filters are only rated at 5 amps. Hello again mfranzel, I am not trying to upset you. In my original post, I was inquiring about your configuration (kpl controlling an outlet). I should have posted this as a direct question. You had indicated that your Keypadlinc was a non-dual band unit. The only non-dual band Keypadlinc relays that I know of are the 2486S units which are rated at 13 Amps. Do you have a 2486S relay Keypadlinc controlling a standard outlet? You can check this using the ISY - click on My-Lighting and then find the device type in the right hand pane (under "Type"). If that is the configuration (please respond), I believe it does not comply with NEC code (as Brian also indicated). I was actually more concerned about you trying to place a filter between the KPL and the outlet. The filters are rated at 5 Amps while the KPL is rated at 13 Amps. Adding a filter to this configuration would have been against code AND unsafe.
oberkc Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 What do I do about this? What about LED bulbs for the lamps? I like using CFLs because I can get ones that put off a white light instead of yellow. One can also get LED that emit the cooler, white light. Although, I don't know if these are available in GU24 base. My perception, based upon the various devices I have tried, is that LED is more compatible with insteon. Still, this is device-dependent. I have found an LED bulb that caused problems, but mostly not that I notice. Again, this is unscientific. I measure nothing...just observe the results.
mfranzel Posted January 28, 2013 Author Posted January 28, 2013 Okay, the clear this up... *My inwall KPL controlling a single outlet on a dual outlet wall plug is a "KeypadLinc - INSTEON 6-Button Scene Control Keypad with On/Off Switch (Dual-Band)" SKU 2487S. *My bedside KPL is just a bedside controller. It is "KeypadLinc Dimmer - INSTEON 6-Button Scene Control Keypad with Dimmer" SKU 2486DWH6. For the table top enclosures, you must use the non dual band switches as they do not fit inside otherwise. *My ApplianceLinc that is controlling a lamp in my bedroom is INSTEON Plug-in Appliance On/Off Module, 3-Pin SKU 2456S3. For whatever reason, this product only comes as non dual band. I replaced the CFLs in my 2 lamps with bright white LEDs and everything is fine in the bedroom... until we get down to the rest of the house. Just for the record, all of my KeypadLincs and SwitchLincs are dualband On/Off Switches. 2487S and 2477S. Now going to the rest of the house... that is when stings stop working again or have difficulty. When I installed all of the new switches and KPLs around the place and linked them into the ISY, everything seemed to be going well, but then every day there seems to be another issue... first the issue with the bedroom and now this... For an unknown reason, the SwitchLincs in the kitchen, laundry room. and the 4 way (3 switches) I have for a set of stairs, do not want to cooperate. Again, all are dualband. The kitchen SwitchLinc seems to work 100% of the time when its load is OFF, again, with its load being 3 GU24 CFL bulbs. However, since it is dualband, I would think there would be absolutely no communication issues, correct? Second, the laundry room SwitchLinc refuses to connect to the system with its load being one GU24 CFL. Then the stairs come into play. It is a 4 way setup... one switch at the top, one in the middle and one at the bottom by the front door. I was told, get them linked to the system, make a scene where they are all controllers and they will work fine. They did for about a day or two. Now, the only switch that controls the load is the switch at the bottom even though the programming in the ISY is fine. So from what I picking up... is there just a really big communication issue? But even so, since 99.8% of my devices are dualband, shouldn't everything still be working?? Thanks again to EVERYONE for your help... I am COMPLETELY new at this and really appreciate the help and the knowledge I am learning!
oberkc Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 So from what I picking up... is there just a really big communication issue? That is what it is sounding like, to me. since 99.8% of my devices are dualband, shouldn't everything still be working?? I am not convinced that this is true. I have a few dual-band devices, but most of mine are powerline-only, so my personal experience is limited. Based upon what I read around here, it seems to me that the RF range of some of these devices can be limited (and affected, in part, by installation factors) and that RF should not be counted on as primary communication. Insteon remains, in my mind, primarily a powerline communication protocol, with RF provided as backup. I suspect you will have to solve any powerline communication problems (assuming that is your problem) to get your system to work well.
LeeG Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Adding the devices that participate in the same n-way configuration to an ISY Scene as Controllers is the correct definition. The ISY will cross-link all the devices such that they stay in sync. However, proper linking does not compensate for comm issues between the devices. It does sound like there are comm issues. Whether they are all related to CFLs, related to RF limitations when installed in j-boxes with lots of wiring and potential other factors such as metal boxes and/or covers, other sources of noise or signal attenuation, cannot be determined simply by some work and some don't. When a device works when the load is Off but not when the load is On is a good indication the load is contributing to the problem. May not be the only problem. This is about the most frustrating part of Insteon. No good independent tools that plug in to monitor powerline signal levels, noise levels, RF levels, etc. X-10 has lots of them because X-10 has been around for decades and it is open. SmartLabs is a single source that has not seen fit to provide what a DIYer really needs. Off my soap box, evaluate what works, what does not. What is common if anything about what does not work. Time of day make a difference, verify that phase coupling is working well with the 4 tap test. It may be necessary to unplug (just powering Off is not enough) appliances to eliminate as potential sources of interference, either noise or signal absorption. The CFLs concern me particularly since moving to something else has resolved the bedroom problem.
Brian H Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 CFLs can be a problem and unfortunately can be a signal sucker or a noise maker. Depending on the design of its electronics. I am fortunate in having some X10 test meters. Not 100% but most noise and signal suckers to X10 also effect Insteon to some degree.
mfranzel Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 Hi all. I simply replaced the problematic CFLs with LED bulbs and everything works perfectly fine with all of my controllers. Thanks for everyones help!
mfranzel Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 I don't want to push the closet light button and have the bathroom lights go on as well. I just want to know from the KPL by my bedside if a light is on that I forgot to turn off. For that, I believe you will need a program. I don't believe insteon scenes can support such a scenerio. You will also need to create an additional scene, with the KPL button as the only device, as responder. Your program would look something like: if status "bathroom light" is on or status "closet light" is on or status "bathroom fan" is on then set "scene with KPL button" on else set "scene with KPL button" off Hi there, thank you so much for this info. I upgraded to the latest release last night and this has stopped working. I don't understand why it is so hard to program the ISY to show statuses of other lights on a button... Is there a work around for this or am I doing something wrong?
oberkc Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I have never had a new release cause a program to stop working. I also don't know of any workaround. The concept of a "scene" status has no meaning in the insteon world, so one must query individual devices. As to why your program stopped working, I can only speculate. How do you originally add the devices? When you select each device, does it show a version? Does it show a status? If you manually turn on ta given device, does the ISY status change?
mfranzel Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 oberkc, In response to each of your questions, the answer to all is Yes.
oberkc Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Did your program somehow get disabled? Have you looked at your program code and confirmed that it is still as you left it? I really don't have any idea why a program would quit working after a version update. I could only poke around and confirm everything looks good still, hoping to find some clue.
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