RPerrault

a lot of smart people and money say otherwise in my entire career i have seen wifi 'interference' once - and it had nothing to do with the signal - it was the rouge detection causing a problem i have spent the money for wifi coverage - and with or without a smart dimmer, i still have the wifi that i had to pay for building out insteon - single purpose - is an added expense - and not proprietary - and a zwave network - and a zig big wifi can and does have its challenges - and seems to be a bad fit for ha devices - that does not mean that someone cannot and has not overcome the challenges - that is what ase was helping me understand adopting an open standard for packet delivery leaves the contents of the package to the application

wifi signals have to reach their destination directly - meaning - devices must be within the range of the device that sends out the signal (access point) - the wifi signal does not require other devices or the destination device to repeat the wifi signal - what people here are calling 'mesh' - wifi reaches a reasonable distance and can penetrate walls and obstacles - within reason - some frequencies penetrate better and travel farther - 2.4 does that best - but higher frequencies are faster - 5 and 6 ghz - but to punch that signal out, power is needed thread is a little more of a mystery to me - i think devices participating in a thread network DO repeat signals - so a command can leap from device to device a long way - assuming there is no gap - but thread's advantage is its low power utilization - meaning battery operated devices - its said a coin battery can last for years in a thread device - but the cost of low power is distance and penetration - very low i assume there is nothing that says a wifi enabled 'matter' compliant couldn't repeat thread signals - even if it got the message from a wifi delivery - that is why i questioned if an insteon device that got a packet on the powerline would repeat that packet on both the powerline and rf - my guess is that matter compliant devices that are wifi enabled will also be thread enabled - but not the other way (battery devices won't talk wifi) wifi and thread are only the method of delivering the packets - there are lots of considerations to determine if wifi is the best way to deliver tiny insteon packets o or lutron packets - or zwave packets wifi and thread both use an addressing standard - ipv6 - we are accustomed to ipv4 addresses (192.168.1.128) - ipv6 increases the number of addresses - a different format but functionally about the same probably the way it will shake out is battery powered - thread - powered - wifi

thread - like wifi - delivers packets - that is all the content of that packet can be insteon or a phone conversation or porn -- it is not an application layer matter is using existing packet delivery mechanisms WIFI, Threah, bt)to deliver packets - the contents will be what matter does (dim, off, whatever) that is different than insteon in that insteon invented both the application (insteon commands) and the method of delivery of those packets - thread nor wifi will dim a light - they are agnostic about the packet content - they just deliver to the device if you have an existing wifi coverage at your home already - for ipads and whatever other devices - you have what you need to deliver to a dimmer already in place - this was not the path zwave or insteon or lutron or or or took - why they chose not to use what is already in place is what we are discussing - and why the matter standard adopted wifi and thread (and bt) into its new standard - wifi seems to be a bad fit to deliver tiny dimming commands and such - we were theorizing on how (and if) they are planning to make wifi a good fit for a new standard i have tried to explain that inarticulately several times insteon's application (command set) is proprietary - i suppose its packet delivery is too - but it can only deliver what insteon allows - wifi and thread can stream porn! to your dimmers i suppose - in any event - we all have wifi - with insteon, you have to 'build' yet another network that is used for only one thing

thanks for taking the time to post - someone that understands wifi and networking and took the time to participate i had no clue how large the transport frame was for wifi - great point i also recall reading about the antenna sizes needed for the different frequencies - which could present a challenge i have always been a hard wired bigot - i think its almost abusive when consumers are told they can stream hi-def or 4k video - i guess it works - i'd only do it as an ad hoc thing - not for 4 tvs this is my reasoning when talking about network equipment limitations - someone has to tell the consumer - so much uses wifi and we are constantly adding to it - people and wire cutting and streaming the video content as an alternative to cable and satellite - if you want to use the router provided by your isp, you can't do it all - the money you invest in a router, network switches and access points (and controller) is better spent than in a single use new frequency - and if you don't have an equipment area, you soon will - not sure ha would be the straw that breaks the camel's back but you know this stuff better and can foresee the problems - which was the point of my discussions ok getting lost here - what devices would need routing capability? i think uds gets a bad rap - i tell people 'it offends my sense of completeness' but for the right application it works remarkably well - voip and such - another question - does streaming video use udp? if so, it would explain the pixilating didn't know that the only wifi troubleshooting i have much experience with was with cisco's level 2 - when their 8821 wifi phones were new - had about 150 or more and got to fight the birthing pains of testing new firmware - as best i recall, i placed one in a diagnostic mode and located the phone close to an ap - not sure what all they used but wireshark was part of the process - but i was cisco end-to-end - all new equipment wired and wifi - added the be6kt hat was gifted from corporate i know they are not morons - which is why i was asking why they did not choose wifi as their packet transport - again - thanks for taking the time to educate me time will tell - but the people behind matter are not morons either - and some pretty smart people with lots of money and market influence have bought in - (obviously no guarantee of success)

sonos has a 'boost' device that takes your devices off wifi - i suppose for those without wifi but yeah - wired is preferable where possible

does sonos get assigned an entire channel that is exclusive to its use? did not know that is allowed in wifi i have 27 sonos devices - never had a problem each access point uses 3 channels - not 3 channels per ssid - if the coverage overlaps, the access points will change channels - if you allow them to streaming sound is not taxing - streaming high def video can be

somebody hold my beer why would the room on my wifi 'list' matter? tell me about my singular experience i mentioned the possibility of complexities in high density housing troubleshooting tools ARE available for wifi - how'd those tools work for you with insteon? learn what mesh wifi is - there is a reason i prefer access points its much better to spend the money building out a single purpose mesh line insteon instead of wifi that does a little more than turn a light off - ok where are people that want 2 zwave devices located on either end of their house - so your advice is to ignore the wifi and build out an entirely new single function mesh - ok if you don't care to participate in the assumption discussion - feel free not to comment but you can't

i miss the point of saying wifi coverage would be a problem - my assumption is anyone putting in ha devices already have good wifi coverage - wifi can be used by a variety of devices - the coverage is probably already there the same problem exists for proprietary packet delivery devices - you won't be sending the director''s cut of brokeback mountain via insteon - but we accept 'building out the mesh' and 'buy more devices' so that delivery of packets can be sent to ha devices - the world needs more rf - single use proprietary mesh .v. an open standard i have never had any interference from a microwave or meat bag or anything else and why is the 2.4 band 'already overcrowded'? seems to be generally accepted here but i don't see that - residential or commercial - maybe a multifamily dwelling - just never seen it these packets are tiny for ha devices people think the packet delivery mechanism and the command set must all be encompassed in matter - it might be in what we call insteon - but those are distinct functions that it looks like matter will separate - guessing again, most already have wifi in place - but not an insteon 'mesh' wifi supports multicasting - theoretically, one address could be used for every matter device - leave it to matter to determine if the command is for each device - there are potential problems with multicasting but matter could minimize those problems - i was wrong, but i assumed that is how insteon eliminated the 'popcorn' thing if not multicasting, matter might have another way of overcoming the wifi 'limitations' - chances are, they thought things through before choosing wifi as one of the adopted packet delivery standards in matter i'd love to see the processing power constraint - i doubt anyone knows the utilization of the components used to deliver wifi if insteon and z-wave and zig big wee had not bundled packet delivery and its command set, the command set might have a better chance to survive and coexist and my favorite - there are tools available to monitor wifi and resolve problems - without the guessing about powerline noise and 'buy more to build out the mesh' however - i assume using access points - not the faddish wifi mesh stuff

um - the past influences the future no one knows the future - my guess is that the new owners did their due diligence - and it seems they are not new to ha products - might work - might not - hopefully they are successful but if not, they will look back without the regret of not trying whatever happens, i have no input or control the brains behind matter would not have chosen wifi if the rumored limitations were true - it might just be they know something we don't - and have overcome the rumored limitations probably know more about the ecorealm than us

wait - it was tom peters i think - back before my rugged good looks faded

with all the 'what went wrong and this is what they should have done' posts - one point seems to be overlooked - farthome/fartlabs made some crap products - deliberately deceived customers - failed to be truthful to its customers about the weaknesses of its products when i called about yet another failed fanlinc, they said they only replace devices sold through smarthome - and i should buy another from smarthome - and - if amazon had guts - would toss them off the site - they said 'yeah we shipped a bunch of faulty ones to amazon - buy from us instead' i don't expect this will go over well here - but it just might be that insteon created their own destruction with their products and service and business practices jon peters wrote 'in search of excellence' in the 80s - ud personifies that book - farthome/fartlabs did not

i'm thinking anyone here cannot afford to have their automation professionally installed and maintained. like me, i want the automation on the cheap. i would bet that the people who failed (i suppose) to make a success of insteon could (and still can) afford to have theirs done professionally. and yet the captains of industry here know exactly what went wrong. now i am no captain of industry either - and do not know everything about the farthome/fartlabs business and what happened - running a business is not where my talents lie - so i did not choose that as a career. i can admire those that do. and the plumber - and the nurse that said, i will vomit the reason i will eventually migrate away from insteon. for me to believe that two different sets of incompetent management took a run at it failed, that investors gave incompetents control - not willing to believe that i know we are fans of insteon and believe its the absolute best - the protocol - the communications methodology - everything that encompasses the word insteon - and it might be - not arguing that - but the best does not always win burroughs mainframe architecture was better than ibm's - burroughs lost - ibm was in a position to tell standards orgs what the standards would be - until it wasn't i hope the absolute best for the new owners - partly because i might need some replacement devices before i can migrate - but also - insteon will not become widely adopted - hopefully it will last awhile - and there will be a market for those of us that were suckered in needing replacements - but if i were to start over - or someone that is new to ha - i doubt insteon will be the choice - too much money for a diyer to stake on hope now that big names and money are on matter, i suspect it will become the standard - more encompassing - more ambitious - not reinventing the wheel when existing standards can be adopted into their standard not saying all others will go away - looking into my crystal ball and taking a guess - my next choice won't be based on hope though farthome sold me a house full of x10 switchlincs - until they stopped making them - i foolishly believed the 'coexist' lie - x10 and insteon - began the changeover to find out coexist was a lie - went all out insteon - bought their 'dual band' lie - the early devices were not dual band - houselinc - all the craplincs and lies of 'buy more' - just another crapload of money and it will work - crappy micro switches that they denied for years and never really admitted were a problem - phase bridging - filterlincs - blah blah blah ud saved me - the devices and support - but the word insteon is forever tainted in my head - and i am not the only one the few device parlor trick market - insteon is too pricey and complex - new to ha? might have a shot but only if you wow them and they don't research insteon's reputation - existing customer base - probably have those - not sure it will be enough to build an empire - but will supply some jobs

they did touchlinc

mwester posted the answer - the real answer - check out his post in this thread now we return to the design/fashion ecosystem/ecorealm discussion

Thanks! i knew there was a real nerd out there somewhere. thanks for taking the time to reply

not following a 'clear' powerline or rf zero crossing?

not sure i see the relation

which is a big plus when an existing open standard is used and not being held hostage to proprietary protocols - one reason i think matter would be a good thing for ha

how?

the controller can report what it sees and made available by the protocol with network problems - for problem isolation - a tool for powerline and rf communications that captures traffic would solve lots of problems without the guessing and theories - like a sniffer or wireshark that is not the responsibility of ud to make one - i am npt bashing ud or insteon someone posted a thread on how to make your own rf antenna that can capture the rf signals - i think it can provide some formatting too - and i suppose an oscilloscope could capture powerline signals it would be interesting to see the traffic

my point was - there is no way of knowing if those devices ever get or respond to rf signals insteon - like many of these ha devices - do not have tools to monitor communications my theory is the 'buy more - robust - build the mesh' routine is profitable for them problem resolution by guessing is how i fix problems on a car engine - try this sensor - now this part - with enough guessing i generally stumble onto something that works

farthome/fartlabs is not selling off their assets lienholders and bankruptcy court would be interested if the liquidator breached their fiduciary responsibility by doing that

so - how do you know - with the deep fryer not in use - that those devices get the rf signals?

gmail strengthened its authorization for access - i don't know the details but it caused technicians for multifunction printer manufacturers mayhem (scanning to email) might want to check on that

interesting - i never took the time to delve in too deeply - and was not in that development group i see the 'links' as device associations - no persistent sessions or session awareness - not sure why a device needs a link to another device - or why it would need to be aware of another device - participating in a scene as a controller, it needs to send commands to device addresses - not sure if a link is involved in that - i should take some time and read the manuals posted