upstatemike

Does a restore overwrite the device link table with the data from the ISY? Does it also clear out garbage links in the device link table that do not match the ISY database? (including stuff past the last valid entry that might be sitting out there?)

Yes that fixed it. Thanks again!

I'm making good progress but have a couple of questions (that I will probably find answers to in the wiki when I get caught up with my reading). 1- When I add a device I see the local level and ramp rate are discovered OK but I don't see the local X10 address. How do you verify/set the local X10 address on a switch? 2- I see that when I make a scene for an area that includes a KeypadLinc and set the scene to OFF, that not all of the KeypadLinc LEDs update properly. (I assume this is a shortcoming of the KeypadLinc?) So instead of making one large scene for the area I just have the program turn off the scenes that already exist for each KeypadLinc button in sequence: If Control 'Bsmt Central Lights' is switched Off Then Set Scene 'Bsmt Keypad Grp 1' Off Set Scene 'Bsmt Keypad Grp A' Off Set Scene 'Bsmt Keypad Grp B' Off Set Scene 'Bsmt Keypad Grp C' Off Set Scene 'Bsmt Keypad Grp D' Off Else -No Actions- This method seems to update the KeypadLinc LEDs correctly, however turning off a single large scene that included all of the KeypadLinc buttons usually resulted in 1 or 2 of them remaining on. Is this the best way to handle situations where you are controlling multiple buttons on the same KeypadLinc at once?

Congrats, Upstate! Which model did you get? 99i/IR PRO

Right in front of me, Thanks! I have successfully tested some programs using scenes and X10 translation, and will now go back to entering the rest of my devices.

So I finally got an ISY on Friday and started putting in my devices today. With an entry for each button, I already have 231 device entries and 92 group entries in the tree view. (Scenes were created automatically from existing device to device links) So I decided to test out creating a new scene manually. I created a new scene and gave it a name and it got added to the bottom of the tree - no problem. I then selected a bunch of devices near the top of the tree to add to my new scene and started dragging them to my new scene.... and 45 seconds later I was still dragging as over 300 entries slowly scrolled past... Eventually I got to the bottom of the list and dropped the devices into my new scene, but am I doing something wrong? What is the 'quick" way to add devices to a scene?

What if you do 2 events? 1st event turns the lights on at sunset. 2nd event turns the lights off if the time is 9PM OR 10PM. (Of course when sunset is at 8:59 the lights will be on for a very short time... but maybe that is what you want?)

Not much response...

This looks really good! Any chance something like this will get implemented?

I would argue that this is not desireable. It is counterintuitive to have a status light ON to indicate that devices are OFF. SH seems to agree since they provided a way to disable the status LED on the large bottom buttons of KeypadLincs. My preferred method is to have only 1 status LED lit at any given time and no LEDs lit when everything is OFF. If no Scene LEDs are lit but 1 or more devices are still ON then the LED of the ALL OFF button should light to indicate that there are devices still active. Also pressing ANY lit button could turn all the lights OFF. (very intuitive even for people not familiar with the system).

In reviewing the definitions above it still feels unsatisfactory because we have two classes of things to keep track of; scenes and groups. What we really need is a Grand Unified Scene Theory to define everything with a single class. I propose we eliminate the concept of 'group" as something we want to track or control and instead manage everything with Unified Scene Theory. If we were to do this, the definitions for groups and group buttons would be eliminated. The "default scene" associated with a group button would be handled as a general scene and so would "group off" which would become the "Common Off Scene". The only new concept we need to introduce under Unified Scene Theory is the idea of "common off scenes" which is just another way of saying that any scen button can toggle everything to off. Using my living Room KeypadLinc example above, pressing the top large button would turn on the 5 lamps as before but the scene is no longer thought of as a default scene and is in no way unique from any other scene. Likewise the bottom large button would no longer be thought of as a "group off" control but instead merely sets another scene that happens to turn everything off. We will call this the "Common Off Scene" because it turns everything off and because it can be common to many toggled scene buttons. Assuming the 4 small buttons are used to set other scenes as in the previous example, we can press one of these and have the scene change and the small buttons status LED light up as before. But unlike the previous example where the top button stayed lit because it was considered a "group button" it now goes off just like any other scene button status LED would because that scene is no longer set. Another difference is that the small scene button can be pressed to toggle the scene off and turn off all the lights just like the large bottom button can. This would be thought of as setting the "common off scene" which is just another way of saying that any scene button can toggle all of the lights off. So we have One type of button (a scene button). We have standard function that matches default behaviour of a ControLinc or KeypaLinc when different buttons on the same device are used to set different scenes. In other words any scene button can toggle the lights to off. We keep the idea that as soon as a scene is no longer "true" that the associated status LED goes out. This would correspond to the logical tracking within the ISY as to whether the scene was considered ON or OFF. The only down side is that if a scene is active and then a device in the scene is changed manually, then there will no longer be a status light to indicate that some devices are on (since we no longer have a group button that stays lit whenever any device is on). This can be addressed as: 1- Who cares? as long as I have a dedicated off button somewhere on the keypad (such as the large bottom button) then this is fine. Note that in 8-button mode you would always need a non-toggle off button to turn everything off when no scene buttons were lit. or 2- Program the status LED in the large bottom button (or a non-toggle off button) to light up whenever there are devices on but no predefined scene is set. This way there would always be a status light of some sort on whenever at least one device was still on... either a scene button light or the default status light in the non-toggle off button. (The non-toggle off status LED works like the old group status LED except it only comes on when there are no scene buttons lit).

I think after all is said and done we really only have about five definitions to deal with: GROUP – A collection of devices that are monitored and controlled together. A group is said to be On if any of its member devices is On and is said to be Off when all of its member devices are Off. Because a group is said to be on when any of its member devices is on at any level, there are many possible combinations of member device states that define the group as being on. When a button is used to control a group and turn it on, the specific combination of device states that is established is called the “default scene†for that group button. SCENE – One or more devices set to specifically defined states by means of a link or command. A scene is considered to be on or True if all of the devices in the scene are set to the exact levels that are defined by the scene. Even a single device, set to turn fully on, is considered to be a scene if that control is accomplished by means of a link or command rather than by manually switching a local load. Because a scene is said to be off or false when any level setting of any of its its member devices changes, there are many possible combinations of member device states that define the scene as being off. In general you would turn ON a scene and turn OFF a group. DEFAULT SCENE – The scene that is set when a group button turns on its group. A given group might be controlled by several different group buttons. Each button would be considered to have its own default scene for the group when it turns the group on. There is no association between the default scenes for different group buttons even if they control the same group. The default scene for different buttons controlling the same group may, or may not, be configured to set the group devices to the same levels. GROUP BUTTON - A button or button pair that controls a group. The button or button pair will turn the group on to a default scene (defined during the button linking process) and will also turn the group off. Group buttons can also be used to dim or brighten all of the members of a group in unison if desired. The buttons on ControLincs, RemoteLincs, and KeypadLincs are considered group buttons as they are normally configured. A SwitchLinc button is also considered a group button if it is linked to control other devices in addition to, or instead of, the local load. You can use group buttons to set different scenes by defining a different default scene for different buttons (on the same or different controllers) that control the same group. This works well for devices like ControLincs and RemoteLincs that do not have status LEDs associated with the buttons. SCENE BUTTON - A scene button may be used when a KeypadLinc or other device employing status LEDs is used to set multiple different scenes for a given group of devices. If more than one group button is defined on the same KeypadLinc there would be confusion as to which scene was active based on the LEDs. To make the buttons more useful, a KeypadLinc can be configured with scene buttons in addtion to a "master" group button or a non-toggle off button. Scene buttons are non-toggle on buttons that always transmit a specific combination of device states to a group of devices. The status LED on a given scene button will only be lit if that scene is currently active or "true". KeypadLincs have some provision for setting up scene buttons internally and and having the status LEDs switch to the currently active scene. A better approach is to use a central logic controller to set the scene status LEDs. An external controller is more flexible and can account for manual operation of devices or commands from other controllers when setting the scene status LEDs.

This does not sound like an issue with the ISY but rather a limitation of the PLM and Powerline translation in general. The PLM cannot listen and talk at the same time (nor can any other powerline interface that I am aware of.) If you have a continuous string of dims or brights I don't think anything can happen until the X-10 transmission is finished and the line is clear to send the Insteon stuff. Insteon and X-10 have different transmission windows but I don't think the PLM can switch from listening to X-10 to transmitting Insteon within the same AC cycle so as long as X-10 is tying up the PLM no Insteon can go out. I hope I am wrong about this but if it is the case then there is nothing that can be done within the ISY to solve it.

Maybe it would help folks in thinking about this if I provided a real world example of how I will apply groups and scenes if and when I am able to get an ISY. In my Living Room I have 5 lamps that are controlled by an Insteon dimmer switch (with no local load) by the door, and a RemoteLinc on the coffee table. The wall switch turns all the lamps On or Off and the ControLinc operates them independently. I also have PowerHome turn on 1 lamp at a dimmed level for a few hours in the evening as a pass through light (You have to walk through the living room to get from some areas to others). I consider the 5 lamps to be a group and the wall switch to be a Group button because it turns the group On and Off. Since the lamps are controlled by a link from the switch (as opposed to being a local load on the switch), I refer to the On level set by the wall switch as the default scene. (NOTE: Even if the wall switch was only controlling 1 LampLinc and it turned it On to full brightness I would still call it a scene because the LampLinc was controlled by means of a link rather than being a local load on the switch. If something is controlled by a link I always consider it a scene.) I'm using the term "default scene" to mean the scene set by controlling a group. You would not track the status of a default scene because it is set by a group button and that buttons LED is used to track the status of the group (as explained in earlier posts). My plan is to: 1- Replace the SwitchLinc with a KeypadLinc 2- Make the Large buttons my Group control buttons; so pressing the Large Top button will turn all 5 lamps on to the default scene and and the bottom button will turn all 5 lamps Off. The top button will be lit any time any of the 5 lamps is on at any level so it will always be intuitive to press the bottom button to turn everything Off. 3- I will make the 4 center buttons into scene buttons for "pass through", "reading", "dimmed", and "corner desk". Whenever one of those scenes is set it will be lit in addition to the top button. 4- I will have the ISY turn on the "pass through" scene at sunset and turn Off the Living room Group at bedtime. If, during this "pass through" window, I turn On the living room default scene (using the top group button) or if I set a different scene using another scene button, the pass through scene LED will go off (as described in earlier posts.) 5- If I have any scene other than the "pass through' scene set during the pass through window and I then turn off the group (either from the KeypadLinc or from the RemoteLinc) , I will have the ISY immediately turn on the "pass through" scene again. 6- If I turn off the group outside of the pass through window OR if I turn off the group while the "pass through" scene is set, then the group will just turn Off. (So if I have the Living Room lights at Full between Sunset and Bedtime and I turn them off as I leave the room then the "pass through" lamp will automatically come On. If I decide I am going right to bed and don't need it On then pressing the bottom keypad button a second time would shut it Off). 7- I will have an X-10 Hawkeye motion sensor in the Living room. When the motion sensor is triggered After Bedtime OR before Sunrise then the "pass through scene will be set for 5 minutes. The motion sensor is disabled between sunrise and Bedtime. The motion sensor is also disabled if any lights are manually turned On from the KeypadLinc or RemoteLinc (if the group is already True) and of course the 5 minute Off timer is disabled if any lights are controlled manually during the 5 minute countdown. Hopefully this example is helpful in thinking through the use of scenes and groups.

Yes, I kept my examples simple to get the concept across clearly but there are a number of things implied by this definition. For example: If you hold the group X button down to dim or brighten the entire group then all scene button LEDs would go OFF unless your manual dimming happens to stop at a level that exactly matched a defined scene. (unlikely) If you walked around and manually set all of the devices in a scene to the exact levels defined in a scene button then the LED for that button should turn ON as soon as the last device is set. Since turning on any device in Group X, or any scene that has a device included in group X, will cause the Group X button LED to turn ON, the Group X button will always be in sync and available to turn the whole group OFF.

Under the established definition of groups and scenes (within the context of this discussion) I would have to agree that tracking the status of scenes might best be handled programmatically because scenes are abstract states. They can be controlled by links as a means to set the scene but the physical link is not part of the definition of a scene as evidenced by the fact that making the scene "false" through a manual change does not change the link that originally set the scene. A group is not an abstract condition but is rather a physical set of devices that can have a one to one association to links and more importantly to a memory location within a PLM. It might make sense to have this tracked within the ISY by default such that when any device linked to PLM memory location x is on (at any level) then memory location x (aka group x) would be considered true or on. When all devices linked to memory location x (group x) are off then group x is false or off. Envisioning a keypad using such an arrangement I might assign button C as scene 1, button D as scene 2, button E as scene 3, and button F as group X. Lets assume that scenes 1, 2, and 3 only affect the devices included in group X. Let's also assume that the group X button (button F)has been linked to all of the devices in the group with a level of 100% so it can be used to turn all devices in the group full on or full off. The scene buttons set the devices to different dim levels to achieve the desired affect. My expectation of how the keypad LEDs would operate is this: Press scene 1 button- devices go to scene 1 levels scene 1 button LED goes ON to indicate scene 1 is set (true) group X button LED goes on to indicate 1 or more devices in group X are ON Press scene 2 button- devices go to scene 2 levels scene 1 button LED goes OFF because scene 1 is no longer true scene 2 button LED goes ON because scene 2 is set (true) group X button is still lit because 1 or more devices in group X are ON Manually change a dim level of a group X device- scene 2 button LED goes off because scene 2 is no longer true group X button is still lit because 1 or more devices in group X are ON Press scene 3 button- devices go to scene 3 levels scene 3 button LED goes ON because scene 3 is true group X button is still lit because 1 or more devices in group X are ON Press scene 3 button again- devices get another command to go to scene 3 levels (so no change) scene 3 button LED remains ON because scene 3 is true group X button is still lit because 1 or more devices in group X are ON Press group X button- all devices in group X go OFF scene 3 button LED goes OFF because Scene 3 is no longer true Group X button LED toggles to OFF because all group X devices are OFF

Is there a "refresh" command in the ISY that let's you set a module to whatever state the database says it should currently be at? That way you could send a refresh command to your most critical devices after a reboot to ensure everything returns to where it was after the power failure (or where it should be at the time of the reboot if the power failure was extended and scheduled events were missed).

My problem with a list is that I have toomany devices to view without scrolling. If a divice that is below the bottom of the page on the list changed state, I would not notice it. Sorry if I said scene, I meant group. (And this is not critical if all the individual devices are visible).

I think most folks who have used X-10 software are familiar with the 16X16 status grid that is so commonly incorporated to give a single page view of the status of all 256 X-10 addresses. I was wondering if there is a similiar view in the ISY for all Insteon groups and devices with loads? (no value in including controlincs) It would be very handy to keep a page up that gives a graphical depiction of each device and group's status... especially if I can click on a square to toggle the device on and off. If this is not available, would it be practical for me to map each device and group to an X-10 address? That way I could use an X-10 controller to monitor and control everything in real time. (As opposed to a list type view where you can't see the whole picture without scrolling). Bear in mind that I have not seen the interface beyond what is shown in the wiki examples so I don't know what views are available.

Looking at your example, doesn't the state of gate determine if the program is true and therefore cause it to flip back and forth? What if you get rid of the else statement? ON PROGRAM: From sunset To 10:30PM IF Gate outlet is OFF Then Gate outlet ON ELSE do nothing OFF PROGRAM: From sunset To 10:30PM IF Gate outlet is ON Then do nothing ELSE Gate outlet OFF

I have always wondered with flashing programs if the traffic generated would present a problem for regular Insteon activities? If not, would it be practical to use this program to flash a keypadlinc button LED to act as an annunciator? Maybe have the LED flashing whenever an external light is on during the day so you are more likely to notice the indicator?

I don't know how the logic in the ISY works but in most sytems I have used a "trigger" remains true through one complete pass of the program loop. In other words anything thing that triggers from L9-ON would be true unless you explicitly reset it to false befor the next affected program.

When you say there is no green light on the Belkin switch for the ISY, are you talking about the link light? Are you saying that you do not have a good cable connected between the switch and the ISY?

That is good news. I was planning to buy it direct from UD anyway.

After the 20% sale that let you pick up an ISY-26 for $239 ended, SmartHome just slapped on a huge price increase bringing the regular price up to $389! Since this is in the target range for the ISY-99, does that mean the ISY-99 target price will also increase?