I think I created conflicting scenes, how to fix?

[racekarl]

In my library I have ceiling lights controlled by a switchlinc, wall sconces controlled by a switchlinc, and a floor lamp plugged into an outletlinc. I also have two 6 button keypads wired with no load.

 

On the keypads, I would like the top buttons on both to be "All On" and turn on all lights, with the corresponding bottom buttons being "All Off." I would like three of the smaller buttons on each keypad to control the ceiling lights, sconces, and lamp individually.

 

I have created four scenes as shown in the attached screen shot:

Sconces 3-Way and Ceiling 3-Way both have the respective switclincs and keypad buttons from both keypads added as controllers to create virtual three way circuits. Lamp 3-Way includes the two keypad buttons as controllers and the outlet linc as a responder.

 

I've also created an "All On" scene that contains the keypads as controllers and the switchlincs and outletlinc as responders.

 

 

Everything seemed to be OK until I switched the paddles on the switchlincs. The LEDs on the swtichlinc I pressed started flickering and the lights would not turn back off. I mashed buttons and finally got everything off, but I'm pretty sure I screwed something up and created conflicting commands. Now if I press "All On" everthign comes on, but the sconces flash off then come back one.

 

I'd appreciate any advice in getting this working correctly!

 

[oberkc]

I thought I would post a quick reply, without spending a lot of time studying your post...

 

I don't think one can create conflicting scenes. If a device is already a controller of one scene, the ISY will not let you add it as a controller in a second scene. Devices can be responder to many scenes, but this would not create the symptoms you describe.

 

I would be considering the following possibilities:

 

a) is the load on the various switchlincs causing a problem? Are these loads something other than a simple incandescent light, operating on 120VAC?

possible wiring problems?

c) communication problems.

d) do you have any programs involving these devices?

[apostolakisl]

What do you mean "I switched the paddles on the switchlincs"

[Brian H]

Are the SwitchLincs On Off Relay type or Dimmer type?

Are the SwitchLincs the new Dual Band Models?

The SwitchLincs are new and not purchased from a private seller?

Have you tried a power reset? Where you pull out the Air Gap Switch for ten seconds. Then press it back to its normal position? Don't push too far as all the way in does a factory reset.

 

You exchanged the original paddles for a new color set?

You may want to double check that they are on correctly.

[racekarl]

Thanks everyone for the rapid responses!

 

What I meant was that after mashing KPL buttons for a while (not totally sure what I did - turning scenes on and off, dimming lights, etc.) I went over and started flipping the switchlinc switches up and down and soon everything got sideways - lights would not turn on or off and LEDs on switchlinc were flashing wildly.

 

So, what I did was delete everything from the ISY, factory reset everything, then re-added it all to the ISY. I've now re-created the basic "Three way" scenes and they seem to work well:

 

Ceiling 3-way scene:

- "Ceiling" Switchlinc with attached load added as controller

- "Ceiling" button on KPL 1 added as controller

- "Ceiling" button on KPL 2 added as controller

 

Scones 3-way scene:

- Sconces Switchlinc with attached load added as controller

- "Scones" button on KPL 1 added as controller

- "Sconces" button on KPL 2 added as controller

 

Lamp 3-way scene:

- Lamp Outletlinc with attached load added as responder

- "Lamp" button on KPL 1 added as controller

- "Lamp" button on KPL 2 added as controller

 

I've tried turning these scenes off from all three controls (both KPLs and the Switchlincs) and everything works as expected - The LEDs all reflect the current state of the load, I can turn the lights on and off and dim from any controller and all is happy.

 

So now, I would like to get the big buttons of the KPLs set up so that if I push the top "All on" button of either KPL all the lights in the room turn on, and if I push the big bottom button of either KPL all the lights turn off. Ideally I would also be able to hold these buttons and raise or lower all the lights at once. So what is the correct way to do that?

 

For background: all three loads are regular incandescent bulbs, everything was installed today by a professional electrician (the wiring in this room was a horror show and needed to be fixed), and everything was purchased new from Smarthome last week, all are new dual band devices. All linking and scenes were created in the ISY, none of these devices participate in a program.

[oberkc]

first, no more "mashing". All scene creation should be done via ISY admin panel. Once created, just use the switches to turn off/on the scenes.

 

So now, I would like to get the big buttons of the KPLs set up so that if I push the top "All on" button of either KPL all the lights in the room turn on, and if I push the big bottom button of either KPL all the lights turn off. Ideally I would also be able to hold these buttons and raise or lower all the lights at once. So what is the correct way to do that?

 

Create one more scene...the two KPL main buttons would be controllers. All other devices you want to come on (including other KPL buttons) in response to the KPL main buttons would be added as responders.

[racekarl]

Thanks, the mashing was not programming, just trying out my scenes that I created in the ISY (i.e. I was mashing the keys of the switches to turn the lights on and off and verify that the lights turned on and off, etc.)

 

What do you mean by other KPL buttons added as responders? Are you saying that I should add the other KPL buttons to the scene in place of the actual load-controlling switches, or in addition to them? If it's the latter, what is the point of that, to get the LEDs behind the buttons to light up?

[apostolakisl]

Thanks, the mashing was not programming, just trying out my scenes that I created in the ISY (i.e. I was mashing the keys of the switches to turn the lights on and off and verify that the lights turned on and off, etc.)

 

What do you mean by other KPL buttons added as responders? Are you saying that I should add the other KPL buttons to the scene in place of the actual load-controlling switches, or in addition to them? If it's the latter, what is the point of that, to get the LEDs behind the buttons to light up?

 

The main 2 kpl buttons on a 6 button device are the same as pushing the on or off side of a switchlinc paddle. They are not listed as two separate buttons.

 

Looking at your screen shot, it appears that it is already done correctly. Your "All On" scene has all three devices as responders and the two KPL's load switches as controllers. It should work. But I wouldn't name it "all on" since it doesn't only turn them all on, it also will turn them all off if you push the off side of the kpl.

 

So, in short, it appears you had everything correct from the start. Perhaps you had some comm failures because something in the house turned on that was making noise.

 

Edit, and by the way, the blinking kpl buttons happens when there is a comm failure.

[oberkc]

Are you saying that I should add the other KPL buttons to the scene in place of the actual load-controlling switches, or in addition to them?

 

In addition. Any light, keypad button (load controlling or otherwise) , or module that you want to go on or off in response to your ALL scene should be included as responders.

 

If it's the latter, what is the point of that, to get the LEDs behind the buttons to light up?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

So, in short, it appears you had everything correct from the start. Perhaps you had some comm failures because something in the house turned on that was making noise.

 

I tend to agree with this, which is why I recommended looking at causes other than scene definition.

[racekarl]

OK thanks, that is much clearer. I realize I still may have a communications issue, but it seemed worth asking if I had done something obviously wrong with my set-up since that's an order of magnitude easier to fix.

 

I'll set the "All" scene back up today and let you know how it goes - the three way scenes are working perfectly so hopefully it was just some sort of transient gremlin.

 

I dread having to deal with a signal issue on this circuit - when the previous owners re-configured this room the genius who wired it stole power for the sconces off the circuit that the smoke detectors are on, and they talk to each other over the powerlines as well, right?

[apostolakisl]

I dread having to deal with a signal issue on this circuit - when the previous owners re-configured this room the genius who wired it stole power for the sconces off the circuit that the smoke detectors are on, and they talk to each other over the powerlines as well, right?

 

120v smokes have a third wire for comm. The hot and neutral don't carry any comm. But it still is not code to use the hot/neutral for anything besides the smokes and (unlike some codes) this code is actually a really good idea.

[racekarl]

Huh, there are a *lot* of other things on the same circuit with the smokes, not just these sconces. Seems like it was built that way, maybe code was different circa 1990 when this place was built?

 

 

Anyway, more info to report - the plot thickens:

 

I set up my "All" scene as before, although this time I added the KPL buttons as well so they would light up when the corresponding loads were on.

 

I go into the room and try to turn off the ceiling lights via their load controlling switchlinc (I don't remember turning them on, but maybe I did inadvertently when creating the scene).

 

So I push the bottom of the paddle the turn the lights off and the LEDs travel to the bottom and begin flashing rapidly, and the load turns off. I turn it back on again and the LEDs travel to the top but are still flashing, as are the load lights themselves. I turn them back off, LEDs go down but still flashing.

 

I opened the event viewer and unsurprisingly there is my switchlinc flooding the lines with thousands of DOF commands:

 

Fri 06/21/2013 10:06:07 AM : [ Switclinc.Address ] DOF 1

 

I pulled the air gap and now that traffic has disappeared.

 

I DID change the faceplate to a custom etched one, so I think my next two steps are

 

1. See if the scene works otherwise without that switchlinc participating in it

2. Pull off the switch paddle and see if the problem still persists after I add the switchlinc back to the scene

[oberkc]

the three way scenes are working perfectly so hopefully it was just some sort of transient gremlin

.

 

Oftentimes, when manual scene commands work but programs or commands from ISY or mobilinc don't, it is because of problems communicating with the PLM. I would consider this possibility first.

 

So I push the bottom of the paddle the turn the lights off and the LEDs travel to the bottom and begin flashing rapidly, and the load turns off. I turn it back on again and the LEDs travel to the top but are still flashing, as are the load lights themselves. I turn them back off, LEDs go down but still flashing.

 

This sounds to me like either a wiring problem, or a device failure. Don't assume that a professional electrician understand how to wire insteon switches. I don't know how comfortable you are with electrical wiring, but I would be pulling that particular paddle out and checking wiring.

[racekarl]

Thanks for the input, I am pretty comfortable with wiring so if needed I will definitely pull the switch out. The electrician was very familiar with Insteon, it's part of his specialty; the main reason I hired one as opposed to DIY was that the previous electrician had done very shoddy work in this room and I didn't feel comfortable enough to try to fix it.

 

I've never controlled any of these lights from the ISY, I only used it to manage the scene creation for now. As I understand it, all of the scene data gets saved into the devices themselves, which are then communicating with each other, is that right? The room is about 20x15 and all devices are dual band, so in theory they could talk to each other via RF as well, right?

 

I have tested the scene a few times without the ceiling switchlinc being a part of it (I removed it from the scene and it currently has its air gap pulled out) and it works perfectly, so that switch does seem to be the offending party whether it's because it's wired wrong or maybe (hopefully!) because the switch padddle is installed incorrectly and is keeping the button pressed.

 

I'll report back as I do more experimenting. Thank you very much for your help! I have been very impressed with how FAST and high quality the responses on this forum have been.

[oberkc]

because the switch padddle is installed incorrectly and is keeping the button pressed.

 

While I read that you had installed a new paddle, the though did not cross my mind that this could be a potential cause of your problems. Good catch. Hopefully, that is the source of your problems and that it is easily remedied.

[racekarl]

Hopefully, that is the source of your problems and that it is easily remedied.

 

Indeed! I ended up having the same problem on the other switchlinc, so I pulled both faceplates (the buttons did indeed feel a little mushy and I didn't hear or feel the "click" like I usually do). So far everything works perfectly as long as it's controlled from the KPLs. Later today I'll try pushing the buttons in the switchlink with a little stick or something to see if they work as expected. If that's the case then it was bad paddle installation, otherwise it would be a communication issue and it's on to the next step of debugging.

[racekarl]

Bad news: when I pressed the buttons with the tip of a screw driver I got the same behavior I've been seeing, so I have a wiring or communication issue.

 

So, what is the next step I should take? Pull them out and check the wiring (e.g. make sure the wire nuts are tight, etc?)

 

I'm curious why the switches behave fine when they're only in a single scene each as controllers, but then misbehave when they're added to another scene as a responder (and then only when their buttons are pressed directly)? I guess the signals they try to send are different or something based on scene membership?

[apostolakisl]

Your saying some weird stuff. Why are you pushing buttons with the tip of a screwdriver? Which buttons are you pushing with the tip of a screwdriver? What happens when you push them with your finger like normal? Aside from physically breaking a switch using an instrument instead of your finger, it shouldn't matter what you use to push a button.

[racekarl]

I'm pushing the internal momentary buttons of the switchlink with the tip of a screwdriver because I had removed the switch paddles.

 

Before installing the switches I had replaced the switch paddles with custom-etched ones. I suspected (based on a comment earlier in the thread) that perhaps I had installed the new paddles incorrectly and as a result they were getting stuck or something and causing the switch to send spurious traffic.

 

So I removed the paddles from the switches to eliminate them as a potential cause of problems. Without the paddles in place, I used a screwdriver to gently depress the internal momentary button. The result was the same as with the paddles in place, allowing me to eliminate them as a potential cause of my problems.

 

Make sense?

[apostolakisl]

Afraid I am at a loss here.

 

I have never seen a switchlinc behave as you say with the led's flashing and the load flashing.

 

When you push the on button on a switchlinc, the led's should travel up to the "on level applied locally" setting. The load directly connected to that switch will always do the same. It won't matter what scene it is a member of or if it is in any scenes at all. In this respect, an Insteon switch behaves just the same as a non-insteon dimmer. The only possible way to alter that behavior is with a program in ISY, but still, what you describe still makes no sense. Of course none of the switches local or scene behavior requires ISY. So if you wanted to rule out any ISY affect on the switch/scene, you could just unplug it. ISY is only a tool to setup the switches or to run programmed events.

[racekarl]

Yeah it's bizarre.

 

I currently have it set up so that the swtichlincs are scene responders only, so if I use them directly they turn their loads on and off but send no signals. Using this set up they work as expected, with the obvious caveat that the KPL LED backlights do not reflect changes made at the switchlinc directly. This is OK for me since the switchlincs are basically inaccessible (I kind of wish I had just installed in-linelincs there)

 

So I think the conclusion is that there is a communications issue related to the wiring of the switchlincs. They appear to work fine when used exclusively as a controller, and when used exclusively as a responder, but when they are configured as both, they go berserk. I assume that when they're doing double duty like that they have to send and receive more information over the wires and RF and that this causes the wiring/communication issue to become visible.

 

For now I think I'm just going to leave it as it is - it works well enough for my purposes, and as I said, the switchlincs are in a dead-end corner behind a table (the door to the room was moved and they were orphaned) so it's unlikely anyone will go mess with them.

[oberkc]

I still think device malfunction is a posssibility.