hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Hello, I'm having trouble linking an 8 button KeypadLinc (2486D v.41) to my ISY 99i/IR using Link Management -> Start Linking. It fails with the error "Cannot determine device link table address." I'm running firmware 3.3.10 on my ISY and my PLM is v92. Below is my log output. Does anyone have any suggestions? Sat 06/29/2013 02:26:54 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode Sat 06/29/2013 02:26:54 PM : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:10 PM : [LNK-STAT ] 02 53 M(01) gid=00 22.94.9F 011C 41 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:10 PM : [22.94.9F 00] Linked device type=01.1C fw=41 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:10 PM : [22 94 9F 0 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:10 PM : [LNK-BGN ] 02 64 01 00 06 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:24 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:24 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 94 9F 0F 0D 00 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:24 PM : [LNK-END ] 02 65 06 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:24 PM : [std MH ] Unexpected Ack imCmd=65 cmd1= 0x9F Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:24 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.94.9F 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:25 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 22.94.9F 0F.9E.D7 2B 0D 02 (02) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:25 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 22.94.9F-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 94 9F 0F 0D 00 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.94.9F 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 22.94.9F 0F.9E.D7 2B 0D 02 (02) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 22.94.9F-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [22 94 9F 0 ] Calibrating engine version Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 22 94 9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:29 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.94.9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:38 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 22 94 9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:38 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.94.9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:47 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 22 94 9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:47 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.94.9F 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 02:27:51 PM : [22 94 9F 0 ] Failed to add device Thanks in advance, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 The issue is the v.41 KeypadLinc is not responding to the request from the ISY to return the size (starting point) of the link database. This is an Extended command which opens up a number of possibilities. To eliminate as many variables as possible I would connect the KPL to an Appliance cord (plug on one end, bare wires on the other). Plug the Appliance cord into the PLM plug point. Factory reset the KPL and use New INSTEON Device to add the KPL to the ISY with the Event Viewer running at LEVEL 3. You have provided great documentation to this point but there are several possibilities for the lack of response to the Extended command asking for link database information. Could be an Insteon Mesh network issue with Extended commands (I have that problem on my network). The fact that the KPL did not respond even with the expected 02 50 Standard response first strongly points to problem with the Insteon Mesh Network. Could be related to a fix ISY created for KPLs with V.41 firmware that is in the 4.0.x stream that cannot be installed on your 99i. Although the 4.0.x announcements indicate an issue with a NACK which is not in your event trace. This is what the response should be to one of the last three command attempts at the end of your trace. Note the 02 50 Standard response which is missing and the 02 51 Extended response which is missing. What type devices are being used to couple the phases. Would they be the SignaLinc with the Black external antenna out the bottom of the SignaLinc? Sat 06/29/2013 04:57:50 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 14 9E F5 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 Sat 06/29/2013 04:57:50 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 14.9E.F5 1F 2F 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D0 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 04:57:50 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.9E.F5 22.80.0B 23 0D 02 (02) Sat 06/29/2013 04:57:51 PM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 14 9E F5 22 80 0B 11 2F 00 00 01 0F FF 00 A2 00 22 80 0B FF 1F 01 54 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 What type devices are being used to couple the phases. Would they be the SignaLinc with the Black external antenna out the bottom of the SignaLinc? You may have hit on something -- my two phases are coupled by SignaLincs with black external antennas. To be specific I have two SignaLinc RF #2442. Lots of red warnings on that page. It appears it's time for me to upgrade to access points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 YES! SignaLincs are so old they do not know about Extended commands. If the KeypadLinc is on the opposite phase to the PLM the Extended command was not coupled to the opposite phase. As I once used SignaLincs and have an old Insteon device inventory you may have other Extended command issues later. However, for now the SignaLincs must be replaced with Access Points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 I really appreciate the help! I placed an order for two new access points and yanked the old SignaLincs. That said, I have a couple newer dual-band devices and was hoping they would take over the responsibility? Unfortunately, I had the same issue linking the KeypadLinc so maybe I'll just have to wait for my order to arrive. Thanks again, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Final question, I swear. Is there any chance my PLM is also too old? I have a PowerLinc Serial Dual Band #2413S V1.0 Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I don't think so. I have PLMs with older firmware that send/received Extended commands. I am more concerned with the general age of the Insteon device inventory. Using SignaLincs suggest the devices could be old I1 devices that also do not repeat Extended commands. It is worth checking some of the devices to see what Insteon Engine they contain. Right click on a device node (primary if KPL), select Diagnostics | Query Insteon Engine. If the Query Insteon Engine returns a 00 it is an older I1 device that does not repeat Extended commands. These devices do not block Extended commands but they also do not repeat them which is an integral aspect of Insteon reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 I can't query the KPL since it isn't linked, but since I just purchased it so I think I'm in good shape. I queried an older SwitchLinc 2476D and it returned the following. Does this mean I'm hosed? Sat 06/29/2013 04:58:40 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 04 29 74 0F 0D 00 Sat 06/29/2013 04:58:40 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 04.29.74 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 04:58:40 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 04.29.74 0F.9E.D7 2B 0D 00 (00) Sat 06/29/2013 04:58:40 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 04.29.74-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sat 06/29/2013 04:58:40 PM : [4 29 74 0 ] Calibrating engine version Regardless, you have identified my problem and are my hero. If I'm understanding correctly a couple new access points should go along ways in fixing my problems. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 That is an I1 device which does not repeat Extended commands. By itself it does not mean a problem but if the general inventory is that old than it would be normal to have other Extended command problems. The new KPL is the latest I2CS device which requires Extended commands to manage the KPL link database and device configuration. If the new KPL is installed at the end of a circuit run that has several I1 devices ahead of it there could be problems. Each Insteon device attenuates the Insteon signal. This normally has no affect because each Insteon device also repeats the message so there is no effective attenuation. Since I1 devices do not repeat Extended commands each I1 device attenuates the message without the normal message repeat. If the KPL is installed at or near the beginning of the circuit run signal attenuation by I1 devices may not be an issue. Just depends on where the newer devices are installed and how many old I1 devices are on the same circuit. I installed a new KPL at the end of a circuit and could not link or configure it because most of my devices are older I1 devices. Finally had to install a Dual Band SwitchLinc in an empty slot to get RF repeat of the Extended commands to the KPL location. Just keep the situation in mind as new devices are installed. The Event Trace will show if issue is related to Extended commands. With the new I2CS devices only supporting Extended commands for link database management and configuration it can be a problem. Independent of that the SignaLincs must be replaced for phase coupling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 LeeG, I stand in awe of your knowledge. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I had the good fortune to start using Insteon almost from day one. Devices were extremely reliable back then, much of my installed inventory in the main house is the original Insteon devices purchased back in 2005?, 2006. Great on one side but now have major problems integrating new devices. Would really need to replace just about every device in the main house which is not possible for other reasons. Good luck with your system. It may not be as bad as mine is. Every system is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackshaven Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Just an FYI, replacing my old SignaLincs with two new access points resolved this issue and seemed to have greatly improved the reliability of my system. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Great news! Thanks for taking the time to post back the solution. Knowing what the resolution is always helps the next one to use this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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