harvey00 Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Hi, i'm trying to add a insteon 2443-222 micro module on/off device. the first error i got was: "cant determine Insteon Engine" then went to the Event viewer: Thu 07/04/2013 19:18:39 : [1F F9 B1 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 07/04/2013 19:19:00 : [1F F9 B1 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3 Thu 07/04/2013 19:19:00 : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Please assist, dont know what i'm doing wrong.. Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 The message about not obtaining the Insteon Engine indicates the ISY is not getting any response from the device address. The Query Insteon Engine is the first command issued. Make sure the device is being powered from unswitched 120v AC. Make sure the Insteon address is correct (8 taken as B, etc). The Event Viewer was not run at LEVEL 3. The event trace can be run again at LEVEL 3 to confirm the Query Insteon Engine is not getting a response. . Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 4, 2013 Author Share Posted July 4, 2013 Thanks, i'm on a 220V and the 2443-222 micro module on/off device can support that. I had a look under PLM info status, and it is connected. my other X10 devices work fine with the system, so it seems to be working, by the new insteon devices does not want to.. any ideas? Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 4, 2013 Author Share Posted July 4, 2013 Events viewer: Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [1F FE AC ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:39 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:48 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:48 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1F.FE.AC 22.7F.7A A3 0D FF (FF) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [std-Direct Nack] 1F.FE.AC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:59 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:59 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.1F.01 00 00 00 00 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 1F 09 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 F6 00 00 00 06 LNK-ON (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1F.FE.AC 22.7F.7A A3 09 FD LNK-ON (FD) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [std-Direct Nack] 1F.FE.AC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:13 : [1F FE AC 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:13 : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 The Insteon communication is all but non-existent. In the first sequence it took three attempts to get any response from this device (different from the other post) and when it did respond on the third attempt the Hops Left=0 indicates the worst possible communication. Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [1F FE AC ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:30 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:39 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:48 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1F FE AC 0F 0D 00 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:48 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1F.FE.AC 22.7F.7A A3 0D FF (FF) Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [std-Direct Nack] 1F.FE.AC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 The next sequence had no better results. The request to put the device into linking mode failed with a NACK. Also it took several attempts to get any response and when it finally did the Hops Left=0 was the same bad result. Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:50 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:59 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:51:59 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.1F.01 00 00 00 00 (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 1F 09 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 F6 00 00 00 06 LNK-ON (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1F.FE.AC 22.7F.7A A3 09 FD LNK-ON (FD) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [std-Direct Nack] 1F.FE.AC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:13 : [1F FE AC 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:13 : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices What are the characteristics of the electrical system being used? PLMs do not run on 220v which suggests some configuration that may not be compatible. How is the PLM being powered? How is the PLM being coupled to the other phase (if there is one). Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 How is the 2443-222 wired to 220 volts and the load? 220 Volts 50 or 60 cycles? Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 220v, 50hz The strange thing is that it works perfectly with my x10 setup. Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 The PLM will not work at 50hz. From the PLM specs - 120 Volts AC +/- 20%, 60 Hertz, single phase. X10 signals start at zero crossing so the circuitry can wait until it sees zero crossing. Insteon signals start before zero crossing so the circuitry is very sensitive to the actual line frequency. Not sure that is the only issue with your install as the PLM requires 120v as well. Whatever is being used to reduce the voltage going to the PLM is also likely interfering with the Insteon signal.. Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 The reason X10 works and the PLMs Insteon commands don't work is signal timing. X10 times everything from Zero Crossing where the AC swings through zero. Insteon starts 800 microseconds before Zero Crossing to 1023 microseconds after Zero Crossing. The PLM is timed to use 60 cycles and as LeeG pointed out will not function correctly on 50 cycles. Some of the latest universal power Insteon Dual Band Modules. Like the 2443-222. Can run on 100-240 volts and auto detect 50 or 60 cycles. Unfortunately the PLM is not one of them. Since X10 modules use Zero Crossing as their start of signal timing. They will, most likely, still function on 50 cycles. Just all the messages take longer to complete. I would also suspect. What ever you are using to drop the 220 volts to 120 volt for the PLM. Is blocking or severely deteriorating the PLMs power line signals. You maybe strictly using the RF Insteon signals to another Dual Band Device. Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 here is the extremely strange thing, cause im running at 220v/50hz, i used a transformer to reduce the 220v to 120v. but with the transformer on the line x10 does not work.. when i remove the transformer (in theory the Insteon link should burn out- right), x10 works perfectly, through the Insteon link. would it be possible to bypass the over powerline coms completely and only use RF? and how would i link that to the ISY994i? Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Sorry, I have no experience using Insteon at 50hz. No idea if the RF associated with 2413S PLM will function on 50hz. It would require Dual Band devices that have operational specs 50-60hz, 100-240v. These are questions that should be addressed to Smarthome. It has nothing to do with the ISY. There is also a serial interface issue with the PLM and Extended (long) messages at 50hz. The second line below should have been a mirror image of the line above with an 06 on the end. Note the two F6 bytes in the second message (echo message) and they are in the wrong location. That is why the device NACKed the third attempt (no response to the first two attempts) because the CheckSum byte was wrong. Until SmartLabs manufactures a PLM designed to operate at 220v 50hz I don't see your system working. Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1F FE AC 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:08 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1F.FE.AC 1F 09 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 F6 00 00 00 06 LNK-ON (00) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1F.FE.AC 22.7F.7A A3 09 FD LNK-ON (FD) Thu 07/04/2013 20:52:09 : [std-Direct Nack] 1F.FE.AC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I may have not been clear. I doubt the Insteon RF commands from the PLM will work. Still using the 50 cycles for timing. The PLM does not send any X10 RF commands. Some X10 folks have bridged the primary and secondary of a 220 volt to 120 volt transformer with an AC rated capacitor. Again 50 cycles is the problem. With a PLM. The 100-240 volt Dual Band devices. Probably will communicate with each other as they adjust to 60 or 50 cycle power. Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 I have another question from some research i can see that the following http://www.insteon.com/2242-222-insteon-hub.html insteon hub, works for 220v and 50hz, and from the way i can see it plugs into the hub, and power, thus no PLM. My question now, if i were to add a insteon Hub to the setup to communicate to the insteon devices, would i be able to see them in the ISY without the PLM, or is there another way for the Insteon hub and ISY to communicate? my end result is to be able to setup programs etc using the isy, if i need to go through the Insteon hub, so be it. I understand that the current insteon keypad and on/off unit works on 220v and 50hz, thus in theory i could let them communicate, but not being able to see them in ISY just makes it an expensive switch.. Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 The ISY994i has to be connected to a PLM. It will not work with the HUB and if the PLM can not communicate with each of the Insteon Modules. It can't add them to the PLMs database and see their commands. Link to comment
harvey00 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 so without a PLM that support 220v/50hz i'm not going to be able to link insteon units to isy? and there is no other way to get it to work.. Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 You should talk to Smarthome to determine if they have a Home Automation solution for 220v 50 hz. They market individual devices that can be powered from 100-240v 50-60 hz. There is the new Hub that replaces the SmartLinc which may offer some HA at 220v 50 hz. However, I have not seen any device that provides PLM function designed to run on other than 120v 60 hz. Based on the event traces posted no reliable Insteon communication is possible with the 120v 60 hz PLM powered from a 50 hz source. This is the first time I have heard of anyone trying to use a PLM on a power source other than one it was designed for. EDIT: note that devices are 'linked' to the PLM, not the ISY. Of course the ISY has information that the links exist but the actual 'link' is between the PLM and a device. I see no way to make that work on 50hz with the current PLM. Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Hello all, Yes, indeed Harvey's case is quite strange. I cannot fathom why X10 would work (albeit not reliably) but INSTEON cannot. The fact that SmartHome is adamant in not producing a 220V PLM is very discouraging. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Yes, no Universal Power PLM is a big bummer. It looks like they are going the cloud based smart phone apps and HouseLinc route. With the HUB. I doubt it would be that hard for the Smartlabs Engineers to rework the HUB for PLM use. Only thing I can think of. Insteon signals start before Zero Crossing and the PLM has to calculate from the last Zero Crossing to start a power line command. 50 cycles messes up all the timing. X10 starts from Zero Crossing and there is an off chance even at 50 cycles it was able to send a command. Link to comment
arw01 Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I thought maybe simplehomenet had a solution but their plm says: Power Requirements: This device will have full functionality in 120V AC, 60 Hz power environments only. INSTEON and X10 require 60 Hz and the PLM requires 120V. If your environment is 240V AC and 50 Hz, Zigbee will still work if a step down transformer is used to supply 120V AC. The USB-CID is our ZigBee only version of the ZBPLM. Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Many of their devices are built on the Base PLM they get from Smartlabs and then add their own daughter cards. Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 The Smartenit EZIComm is the SmartLabs PLM with a different label. SmartLabs is the only manufacturer of the Insteon PLM. The EZIComm can be purchased with an optional RS-485 interface rather than the normal RS-232 but that is just a different Daughter card. SmartLabs does not license any company to design and build their own PLM. Link to comment
Brian H Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 LeeG; Doesn't the RS-485 option for the EZIComm add the signals to the RJ45 I/O Jack and the RS-232 signals are still there? The users manual seems to indicate that some normally unused pins and the TTL signal pins are removed or reused. When RS-485 was added. Link to comment
LeeG Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 The RS-485 interface is accessed through the RJ45 jack. I think it is either RS-232 or RS-485, not both. I'll go through my doc and see if I have anything specific on pin usage. . Link to comment
WayneW Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Hopefully I am not hijacking this thread with my experiences, but this thread caught my eye since I think I had the same error and found a workaround. I have a 99i running 3.3.10. I was replacing 2 2476D with 2 2477D units. These are in the same switch box and on the same circuit. No known communication issues with the 2476Ds. I added my first 2477D (23 C6 D9) in the ISY with no problems. When I went to add the second 2477D (23 BF 5), it failed with an error about the query Insteon engine. I got this error multiple times. I had never seen this error before. I knew the 2477D was powered up and functioning. I went to add the 2477D a third time, but this time I told the ISY that it was a 2477D instead of letting it "auto discover" like I had always done. This time it worked fine. My partial log is attached, I am not sure why I didn't catch the rest of the activity. I had no trouble using the ISY replace feature, once I got past the adding issues. ISY-Events-Log.v3.3.10__Sat 2013.07.06 10.22.12 AM.txt Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.