water leak sensor 2852-222

[flsenior]

I am confused about the operation of the water leak sensor 2852-222. When I have a power interruption my ISY 99 (and MobiLinc Pro) no longer shows the status of the water leak sensor.

Questions:

1. When power is restored, if a subsequent leak occurs, will the leak sensor send a notice?

2. Does this sensor send a "heartbeat" every 24 hrs? If yes, will that restore the sensor status to the ISY (and MobiLinc Pro)?

3. I live in an area where summer rain storms are frequent and power interruptions are daily. Is there any alternative such as power back up to the ISY/PLM that will help me work around this problem?

[Brian H]

3. Some users have their ISY99i/ISY994i power supply on an UPS. The PLM still should be powered by a standard AC outlet. Not on an UPS or filtered surge strip. As they absorb most Insteon and X10 power line signals as noise.

 

I have my ISY994i power supply on my UPS. The UPS is on the filtered outlet of a FilterLinc to prevent its internal line filters from absorbing Insteon signals. The PLM is in the front unfiltered outlet on the FilterLinc.

[LeeG]

"1. When power is restored, if a subsequent leak occurs, will the leak sensor send a notice?"

 

Sure. Just like a RemoteLinc2, Motion Sensor, TriggerLinc, etc battery powered RF devices cannot be queried because they sleep to save battery life. The next message from the Leak Sensor will update the Status. Being that these devices are battery powered they know nothing about the power interruption and are not affected by it.

 

"2. Does this sensor send a "heartbeat" every 24 hrs? If yes, will that restore the sensor status to the ISY (and MobiLinc Pro)?"

 

Yes, the Heartbeat message is sent nominally every 24 hours. It carries the current state of the Leak Sensor (Dry or Wet) which will update the Leak Sensor nodes.

[flsenior]

I have lost the status of my water sensors due to power interruption while on vacation. While using MobiLinc I see the status of all of the house lights once power returns but not the status of the water sensors even though days pass before I return home. Does the lack of status showing via MobiLinc indicate that the water sensors are NOT sending a heartbeat signal?

[arw01]

Could you go into the admin console, tools, trend (chart) and chose that leak sensor and see what it has for activity? Don't know if that will work, but might tell you if the heartbeat is being received at least.

[LeeG]

I don't use MobiLinc but I would expect it to have the latest information. Perhaps some refresh is needed. Log in to the Admin Console. If it does not show Leak Sensor status after 24 hours there is an issue. Could be RF communication problem, battery in Leak Sensor although they are supposed to last for some 10 years, or a link record problem. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Tap the Set button on the Leak Sensor. It should send a message either Dry or Wet (the Set test cycles between the two) as well as 10 seconds later a test Heartbeat message.

 

If Leak Sensor messages are not seen perhaps an Access Point or whatever device the Leak Sensor normally communicates with did not come back after the power outage.

 

See if other devices show real time status changes as lights are turned On/Off manually at the device. The PLM could have lost link records from the power outage but that would not be normal for a simple power drop.

[flsenior]

I have 6 of the water leak sensors and they all react the same. Once I lose power they never show their status until I manually push the test button. This is in spite of waiting days before I can activate the sensors manually.

 

Once I perform the manual activation, the sensors report their status with 100% accuracy.

 

How do I test for the "heartbeat"? And should the "heartbeat" result in a status reporting?

[LeeG]

"Once I perform the manual activation, the sensors report their status with 100% accuracy."

 

How have you confirmed this? Have you made them Wet then Dry to verify the Status change shows in the Admin Console. Since the Leak Sensor normally does not send anything except the Heartbeat message for months at a time how has the operation of the device been verified?

 

"How do I test for the "heartbeat"? And should the "heartbeat" result in a status reporting?"

 

Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Tap the Set button on a Leak Sensor. Approx 10 seconds after sending either a Dry or Wet message the Leak Sensor sends a Heartbeat message. The following is an example of what happens when the Set button is tapped. The first sequence is a Wet message (00.00.02). The Set button tap alternates between Wet and Dry so this could be a Dry message (00.00.01). This is followed by a Heartbeat message (00.00.04).

 

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:43 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 00.00.02 CB 11 02 LTONRR (02)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:43 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:43 PM : [ 21 7A CC 2] DON 2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:43 PM : [ 21 7A CC 2] ST 255

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:43 PM : [ 21 7A CC 1] ST 0

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:44 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 00.00.02 CB 11 02 LTONRR (02)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:44 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->Group=2, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:44 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 22.80.0B 41 11 02 LTONRR (02)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 21.7A.CC-->ISY/PLM Group=2, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 11.01.02 CB 06 00 (00)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->11.01.02, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:45 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 11.01.02 CB 06 00 (00)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:46 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->11.01.02, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:46 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

 

 

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:59 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 00.00.04 CB 11 04 LTONRR (04)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:59 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->Group=4, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:59 PM : [ 21 7A CC 4] DON 4

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:59 PM : [ 21 7A CC 1] ST 255

Sun 07/21/2013 02:13:59 PM : [ 21 7A CC 2] ST 0

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:00 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 00.00.04 CB 11 04 LTONRR (04)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:00 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->Group=4, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:00 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 22.80.0B 41 11 04 LTONRR (04)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 21.7A.CC-->ISY/PLM Group=4, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 11.01.04 CB 06 00 (00)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->11.01.04, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:02 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:03 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 21.7A.CC 11.01.04 CB 06 00 (00)

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:03 PM : [std-Group ] 21.7A.CC-->11.01.04, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 07/21/2013 02:14:03 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

 

The Heartbeat can be monitored with an ISY Program. An example follows. The X10 message is a test message that is not issued unless the Heartbeat fails to arrive. A Notify would likely be better for most.

 

If
       Control 'Leak Sensor-Heartbeat' is switched On
    Or Control 'Leak Sensor-Heartbeat' is switched Off

Then
       Wait  25 hours 
       Send X10 'A10/All Lights On (5)'

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

[LeeG]

What firmware level ISY is being used?

 

How many nodes are listed for the Leak Sensor? There should be three nodes.

 

The Heartbeat support was added at 4.0.1. The Leak Sensor had to be Deleted and added back after 4.0.x is installed for the Heartbeat to work.

[LeeG]

I missed a specific answer. Yes, the Heartbeat message does carry the current Dry/Wet status of the Leak Sensor. The Heartbeat message will set Status of the three nodes if it is changed by the Heartbeat message.

[LeeG]

Going back to the initial post I see you have an ISY 99i (assuming the missing 4 was not a typo).

 

3.3.10 does not have Heartbeat support. That would explain your situation. Without the Heartbeat the Leak Sensor would not be expected to send any messages for months at a time unless the Set button is tapped to send the test messages. After that the ISY remembers that Status until the next power outage.

[flsenior]

Some answers to the 3 posts above.

 

1. I have confirmed the status change through the admin console. Also see the same status via MobiLinc. The method of verifying the operation has been to manually activate the set button.

2. I have run your suggested test on the event viewer. I see the wet and dry messages but NEVER see a Heartbeat message.

3. I am on firmware 3.3.10. ISY 99i Pro As I understand, I can't install 4.0.X.

4. I have 2 nodes for the leak sensor, wet and dry.

[LeeG]

Thanks for information update. 3.3.10 (the latest firmware for a 99i) does not have Heartbeat support. If you move to a 994 at some point the Leak Sensors will have to be Deleted from the ISY and added back to pick up the third node which supports the Heartbeat.

 

The Leak Sensor is completely functional at 3.3.10 as far as detecting Wet conditions and sending the indication to the ISY. The Status will be blank unless/until the Set button is tapped (or an actual Wet condition occurs) which really does not mean much since the Set button sends a test message, not the actual Wet/Dry state of the Leak Sensor. A blank Status does not hurt anything. A Program that is triggering on a If Status change to Wet will work so long as the Set button tap message did not send a Wet message (each Set button tap sends an alternating message). A Set button tap sends a Dry message, the next Set button tap sends a Wet message. A Program written to trigger with If Control is a better option as the Program triggers regardless of the current Status.

[flsenior]

Thank you very much for your help.

 

I had my programs written to trigger lights on/off and a text notification should the Status Water Sensor Wet is On.

 

You mentioned to use the If Condition. What is the difference between using two If statements such as

"If Status of Water Sensor Wet is On

Or Status of Water Sensor Dry is On

 

Then....

 

Versus

"If Condition of Water Sensor Wet is On

Or Condition of Water Sensor Dry is On

 

Then....

[LeeG]

The If Status is checking the Status ISY maintains within itself. Since the Set button is being used to fill the blank Current State column and the Set button tap can cause a Wet state message to be sent, the ISY Current State (Status) could say Wet node On from the Set button tap. Should the Leak Sensor send a Wet node On because a leak is actually detected the Status would not change because the Set button tap had already set the Status to Wet. If Status triggers a Program only when the Status changes.

 

If Control is looking at the command flowing from the Leak Sensor. Therefore If Control will trigger the Program regardless of whether the Status was already Wet from the Set button tap.

 

If Control 'leaksensor - Wet' is switched On

 

will trigger the Program on a leak regardless of what the Set button tap sent.

[Autonow]

For what it is worth.. It makes sense to me now. Wireless devices can not be polled... The way they work is they transmit the signal when they are tripped. So with the water sensor you get a status in the ISY when it trips (an on signal) AND when it resets (an off signal) Since the ISY is event driven (as opposed to a continuous scan) it retains the last status of the device. It (the ISY) is waiting for a "status change" in order to do something. The main thing to remember is what you perceive as the status is only what was last transmitted. Not the actual status. even though you may not register a status in the isy after a reboot (powerloss) it will act on any new signal received.

You are forcing a transmit when you put the device in test which sends the current state. Remember wireless devices are asleep and only wake up to transmit a new event.

the reason they can not be polled!

 

Clear as mud?

[LeeG]

Autonow

 

Correct with one minor point. The Leak Sensor sends only On commands for the Dry and Wet nodes. When the Dry node sends an On command the ISY marks the Wet node Off. When the Wet node sends an On command the ISY marks the Dry node Off.

 

The Heartbeat node does send On and Off commands. On command when the Leak Sensor is Dry, Off command when the Leak Sensor is Wet.

 

Not sure if that makes the mud more dense.

[flsenior]

All of this makes a lot of sense and helps me in a huge way. First off, I was assuming that with a power interruption (and ISY status) I also had a loss of notification should the sensor detect water after the power resumed. Understanding how the sensor will send a signal if water is detected without having a status on the ISY is a HUGE peace of mind when I am on vacation and can't reset the sensors.

 

Second, changing my programs to Control vs. Status also releases me from the pain of tapping each of my sensors 2X to get the status on the Dry node at the state I desire. I have 7 sensors including 1 in the attic. It was a pain to get a ladder and climb into the attic to reset the sensor. With the change to "Control" I no longer have to bother to make the rounds tapping the sensor set button.

 

Of course, I should check the battery operation periodically, perhaps every 6 mo. to make certain that the sensors are operational but that is minor compared to what I was doing.

 

Thanks to the knowledge pool on this forum who helped me. You folks are hand down, the best support group I have ever experienced.

[jimthompson]

First Kudos to the ISY guys for making a difficult situation (Dry-On, Wet-On) sane by toggling the alternate state. Now wouldn't it be grand if like the Motion Detectors you got a Battery Low from these things? I guess its just another thing to replace batteries in when we change the clocks.

[LeeG]

Battery life is advertised in the 10 year range.

 

There is a Heartbeat node that sends a message every 24 hours. This node can be monitored to insure that Leak Sensor messages are reaching the ISY/PLM.