Garage Notification Not Working as Expected

[scubaguyjohn]

It sounds to me as if your analysis is accurate and that a couple of access points is the most likely solution. Hopefully, they have enough range.

 

do all insteon devices in a network automatically rebroadcast all commands via both rf and powerline?

[LeeG]

No. An I/O Linc does not operate on RF. Only the most recent KeypadLinc Dimmers are Dual Band. Most KeypadLinc Dimmers in the field do not operate on RF.

[oberkc]

That is my understanding, assuming that they are dual-band (not all are). Certainly, access points do. Battery devices, however, do not re-transmit insteon commands.

[scubaguyjohn]

No. An I/O Linc does not operate on RF. Only the most recent KeypadLinc Dimmers are Dual Band. Most KeypadLinc Dimmers in the field do not operate on RF.

 

understood ... I have about 30 new dual band dimmers. Assuming a device is dual band, will it automatically send out every insteon signal via both rf and powerline?

[LeeG]

Yes, with all the appropriate caveats. That is like asking does every device repeat the message on the powerline. Absolutely not. Does every device repeat the RF message. Absolutely not. The question cannot be answered with a simple Yes or No because an Insteon Mesh Network is anything but simple. There is an updated insteondetail.pdf document on insteon.net that goes into how Insteon messages are processed. Simply put once a device ACKs a message hops stop.

 

Device A, Device B, Device C, Device D on one circuit. Device A sends a message to Device B. Device B does not repeat the message to Device C and Device C does not repeat the message to Device D. That is why device to device control communication starts out with a Max Hops=1 to maximize the data rate and minimize traffic. There is a chart in the insteondetails document that quantifies the reduction of data throughput rate as Hops increase.

 

I think you take it on faith that the Insteon Mesh Network works. With the appropriate Dual Band devices on both 120v legs (phases) that have been verified to be in RF range of each other and on opposite 120v legs the Insteon Mesh Network works. That does not mean that issues with individual circuits cannot exist. They often do and need an individual solution.

[scubaguyjohn]

Yes, with all the appropriate caveats. That is like asking does every device repeat the message on the powerline. Absolutely not. Does every device repeat the RF message. Absolutely not. The question cannot be answered with a simple Yes or No because an Insteon Mesh Network is anything but simple. There is an updated insteondetail.pdf document on insteon.net that goes into how Insteon messages are processed. Simply put once a device ACKs a message hops stop.

 

Device A, Device B, Device C, Device D on one circuit. Device A sends a message to Device B. Device B does not repeat the message to Device C and Device C does not repeat the message to Device D. That is why device to device control communication starts out with a Max Hops=1 to maximize the data rate and minimize traffic. There is a chart in the insteondetails document that quantifies the reduction of data throughput rate as Hops increase.

 

I think you take it on faith that the Insteon Mesh Network works. With the appropriate Dual Band devices on both 120v legs (phases) that have been verified to be in RF range of each other and on opposite 120v legs the Insteon Mesh Network works. That does not mean that issues with individual circuits cannot exist. They often do and need an individual solution.

 

 

thanks for the detailed explanation...that makes sense why some of my configurations work better than others as not every device is rebroadcasting every command.

 

John.

[scubaguyjohn]

okay, here's the latest. Installed an access point at the main house and one in the garage. After holding the set button on the house AP, it blinks green, then the garage AP light blinks green once and beeps twice after pressing its set button - is this the correct lighting sequence for linking the two via RF only communication? I installed the garage access point on the same panel leg as the iolinc.

 

Running event logs, ISY is receiving sensor commands when I hotwire the sensor terminals to change them from on to off. However, the ISY panel still will not reflect the change until a query is done. If i install the iolinc in the house, the sensor value changes as expected without a query.

 

I'm thoroughly confused as to why ISY sees the sensor communications but won't post the correct status.

 

IOlinc won't work in the garage by moving it to another outlet (same circuit) that is closer to the house. I moved the access point to within 60' of the main house to see if that would help, it didn't. I relinked the AP's as above and put the IOlinc within 10' of the garage AP, and still ISY won't change value until queried.

 

I can control the garage lights and a lamplinc without issue which are on a different leg than the AP's. Removing the dual band dimmer and lamplinc from ISY (leaving only the IO linc and the AP's in the garage) did not change anything.

 

ISY is running 4.05

 

help is appreciated!

 

John.

[LeeG]

Post the event trace running at LEVEL 3. When some messages are received but the ISY does not change status it sounds like some of the messages are missing. This could be a comm issue or it could be a link record problem.

 

The 4 tap Set button test does not involve using the Set button on the second Access Point. 4 taps on one of the Access Points Set button and observe the LED on the other Access Point. The second Access Point should blink green (or Red if on same phase) because it is receiving the test RF message.

[Xathros]

Hi John-

 

Tap the set button on one of the AP's 4 times then go observe the LED on the other AP and any other dual band devices near the 2nd AP and post your findings.

 

APs are designed for and normally used for bridging the 2 120v phases of a normal home electrical system. Generally, you don't need to "Link" an AP to anything. They just communicate with each other and pass what they receive on the powerline to the other via RF and what they receive via RF they pass to the powerline. The 4 tap test does 2 things: 1) Determines if the AP's are withing RF range of each other 2) Determine if they are on opposite phases from each other. The same test can be performed between any 2 dual band devices but you will have to consult the user guide for each device to determine what the LED response means for each particular device.

 

At the very least, if the 4 tap test gets the other AP blinking, then you will know they are in range of each other.

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

Remember that a Query will change the Sensor state because Trigger Reverse is being used. This happens when the I/O Linc comm is working correctly. When Trigger Reverse is being used and Query does not change the Sensor state that indicates a comm problem.

 

If the event trace is taken open and close the door along with issuing a Query after each door movement.

[scubaguyjohn]

ok - pressed AP button 4 times and I'm getting blinking red on the garage AP and blinking red on the garage dual band dimmer. Does that mean both AP's are on the same phase (bad)? or does it mean they are communicating via RF (good). I can tell you I'm only getting about 80' open air, direct line of site communications between the two AP's which is a concern.

 

I will post the trace afterwards. Gotcha Lee on the sensor flip due to query. I have tested and retested but the sensor won't change value without a query.

[scubaguyjohn]

as a last resort, i unchecked the trigger reverse box, now ISY is reporting the sensor status accurately and in real-time....

 

and it works with the AP unplugged.

[LeeG]

Blinking Red means the second Access Point is receiving the RF test message from the first Access Point and both Access Points are on the same phase. If the point of the Access Point in the garage is to simply relay the message over RF it is working fine. If the point of the Access Point in the garage is to couple the phases then that is not happening.

 

Unchecking the Trigger Reverse option would not affect the ISY posting the state of the Sensor. It means that Trigger Reverse was causing confusion regarding what commands the Sensor is sending versus what the Query status is reporting which is the direct opposite to the commands being sent when the Sensor changes state.

 

Now that Trigger Reverse is not being used the commands the Sensor sends on a state change match the state that Query returns.

[Xathros]

Do the 4 tap test again and look around at other dual band devices in the garage and house and see if any blink green. It would be good to know that the AP it also talking to something on the opposite phase. If not, It may be well worth another AP in the house on the opposite phase to bridge the phases.

 

-Xathros

[scubaguyjohn]

For one day, after rechecking the reverse trigger box, the sensor system worked as it should. However, overnight, it stopped.

 

 

Ran more tests:

 

1. Pressing garage AP 4 times results in garage light switch blinking green and garage lamplinc blinking green. The IO Lincs don't blink regardless of how close the AP is located to them or even if on the same circuit. Should the IOlincs blink?

 

The house AP starts to blink green when the garage AP is moved within 100' of it (via an extension cord). Only one house switch blinks red.

 

2. Pressing the house AP 4 times results in some house switches blinking green. The number of switches is fairly limited and appears to be only those that are in close physical proximity to the house AP. I have 75 or so switches and perhaps only 5-6 blink depending on which outlet the AP is plugged into. I have 3 electrical panels in the house.

 

3. Pressing the house AP 4 times results in the garage AP blinking green. While the garage AP is blinking green and on the same panel leg as the garage light switch, the garage light switch is now blinking red indicating its receiving a RF signal. The lamplinc which is further from the AP is not blinking indicating it is out of RF range. This is not the same behaviour as #1 above. Also, if I unplug the garage AP, the switch red light keeps blinking indicating that it's receiving the RF signal from the house AP!

 

4. The house AP and garage AP lose contact if I move them apart more than 100' despite clear, direct outdoor line of sight between them. Specs rating is 200'. I don't understand this.

 

Without naming names (yet!),I should note that the AP's were purchased from an ebay home automation reseller...I'm wondering if these are reduced quality AP's even though they are new and rev. 2. I've had a lot of problems with keypadlinc's purchased from the same company but attributed that to lower rev./older units. Did the AP's have distance issues at one time with prior rev's?

 

John.

[scubaguyjohn]

Blinking Red means the second Access Point is receiving the RF test message from the first Access Point and both Access Points are on the same phase. If the point of the Access Point in the garage is to simply relay the message over RF it is working fine. If the point of the Access Point in the garage is to couple the phases then that is not happening.

 

Unchecking the Trigger Reverse option would not affect the ISY posting the state of the Sensor. It means that Trigger Reverse was causing confusion regarding what commands the Sensor is sending versus what the Query status is reporting which is the direct opposite to the commands being sent when the Sensor changes state.

 

Now that Trigger Reverse is not being used the commands the Sensor sends on a state change match the state that Query returns.

 

thanks Lee, the objective of the garage AP is to simply relay the message via RF.

[scubaguyjohn]

Remember that a Query will change the Sensor state because Trigger Reverse is being used. This happens when the I/O Linc comm is working correctly. When Trigger Reverse is being used and Query does not change the Sensor state that indicates a comm problem.

 

If the event trace is taken open and close the door along with issuing a Query after each door movement.

 

I guess I have a comm problem as the only time the sensor state changes upon query, is if it's in the incorrect state (on ISY panel). Running a query when the sensor state is correct (regardless if this is on or off) doesn't result in a sensor state change.

[scubaguyjohn]

would appreciate some feedback on my long post above...thanks.

[oberkc]

Should the IOlincs blink?

 

I would expect not, since they are not dual-band.

 

The house AP starts to blink green when the garage AP is moved within 100' of it (via an extension cord).

 

This suggests to me two things. First, if you must move your AP closer for your house AP to respond, then it sounds as if your garage is out of RF range. Second, given that your house AP blinks green, then this suggest that they are on opposite legs. Unfortunately, the second point does not much matter if they are out range from each other.

 

Pressing the house AP 4 times results in some house switches blinking green

 

I conclude from this that you have communication across the legs of your electrical system based on the house AP and house switches. Good.

 

only 5-6 blink depending on which outlet the AP is plugged into.

 

I assume this is because only those 5-6 are within RF range of the house AP

 

The house AP and garage AP lose contact if I move them apart more than 100' despite clear, direct outdoor line of sight between them. Specs rating is 200'. I don't understand this.

 

The specified range is "line of site". If you have obstructions, such as walls, electrical boxes, doors, etc.... then range will be diminished. If you have clear line of site, then neither do I understand the reduced range.

 

Pressing the house AP 4 times results in the garage AP blinking green. While the garage AP is blinking green and on the same panel leg as the garage light switch, the garage light switch is now blinking red indicating its receiving a RF signal.

 

The garage light switch is, according to the test, on a different leg. Why do you believe otherwise?

 

I also note that LeeG suggested you post an event trace, to which I have not seen a response.

[LeeG]

Two Access Points are positioned outside of all structures running on extension cords.

 

How are you maintaining vertical orientation which is critical to RF range?

 

Power panels alternate the 120v legs vertically; A,B,A,B, and so on. Not A on the left side and B on the right side. With one device blinking Green and one blinking Red in the garage they are on opposite 120v legs.

 

Now that Trigger Reverse has been activated again all the issues with Query results being different from Sensor command based states are in play. The ISY 3AM Query of all devices means the Sensor state displayed in the Admin Console will be different when viewed in the morning even though the door has not moved.

 

The Event Trace at LEVEL 3 showing several door open/close activities will show the general health of the comm from the garage to the ISY PLM location. Control of other Insteon devices in the garage may help clarify comm. reliability since from the blinking Red versus blinking Green devices are on opposite 120v legs in the garage.

[scubaguyjohn]

Two Access Points are positioned outside of all structures running on extension cords.

 

How are you maintaining vertical orientation which is critical to RF range?

 

Power panels alternate the 120v legs vertically; A,B,A,B, and so on. Not A on the left side and B on the right side. With one device blinking Green and one blinking Red in the garage they are on opposite 120v legs..

 

 

let me focus on just the AP in the garage - I triple checked the circuits: the garage light switch (dual band), the garage lamplinc (dual band), the AP (dual band), and the io lincs are all on the same garage electrical panel leg. I understand the the legs alternate. When i press the AP in the garage 4 times, the garage light switch blinks red and the garage lamp linc blinks red.

 

Isn't this the opposite of what they should do when on the same leg? Heck, the lamplinc is plugged into an outlet right next to the AP...removing the AP from the extension cord doesn't change the behavior.

 

Do I understand the blinking red color meaning correctly?

 

Lee, I'm maintaining vertical orientation on the AP's correctly, they are not lying on their sides.

 

thanks John.

[LeeG]

Blinking Red is the correct behavior. It means the device sending the test RF message and the device receiving the test RF message are on the same 120v leg.

[scubaguyjohn]

Blinking Red is the correct behavior. It means the device sending the test RF message and the device receiving the test RF message are on the same 120v leg.

 

thanks Lee, on to the next tests.