ferdies Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Hi, Currently, I have a 3-way switch, but I am planning only to replace 1 with Insteon switch. Is this possible or do I need to disconnect the other 2 switches and enable the Insteon switch. Thanks.
apostolakisl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Sorry, not possible. All 3 need to be Insteon.
oberkc Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 You cannot simply replace a one switch in a multi-switch circuit with insteon, leaving the others in place. You MAY be able to rewire the circuit to have a single insteon switch and no others, but this would depend on how the circuit is wired. If power is introduced at the fixture, then you would either need to add additional conductors between the fixture and switch box, or an additional insteon device (such as mircro module) at the fixture. Either way, you will need to re-purpose some conductors.
apostolakisl Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Yes, I didn't read what you read careful enough. If you are OK with eliminating the other switches you will probably be OK as stated. You will need to splice wires and then cap the boxes. And if you have 3 switches on the light, you actually have a 4-way switch. And I could be wrong on this point, but I don't think anyone ever wires a 4-way switch by switching the neutral rather than the hot.
LeeG Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 Switching the Neutral would be against code. Would not be done by professional electrician.
blueman2 Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 Yes, I think it can be done. Use a sensing switch (2476SS with sense). You would wire it so that the other 2 switches act as normal 3 ways (2 switches = 3 way, 3 switches = 4 way if I understand the standard terminology), sending power to the sense line of the 2476S. This will allow all 3 switches to turn the load on or off. It might however require you to sometimes flip the existing switches a couple times to get the desired effect. Wiring will be tricky, but it should work.
oberkc Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 Yes, I think it can be done. Use a sensing switch (2476S with sense). Interesting idea! I don't see this device on smarthome web page. Has it been discontinued? This also may depend on how the circuit is wired. In some three-way configurations, I don't think there would be enough conductors.
Brian H Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 The 2476S is discontinued and did not have a sense input. The 2467SS was the one with sense and it is also discontinued. http://www.smarthome.com/2476SS/SwitchL ... ite/p.aspx The Dual Band 2477S is now the model being sold and it also has no sense input. http://www.smarthome.com/2477S/SwitchLi ... ite/p.aspx The On Off Micro Module has sense inputs but I am not 100% sure it will work in your application. http://www.smarthome.com/2443-222/INSTE ... ule/p.aspx
apostolakisl Posted August 22, 2013 Posted August 22, 2013 You don't want to do the sense micro-module. It is totally screwy having to turn a switch up/down or vice-versa to turn a light on. That is just goofy. If they programmed the sense to change state on a change of the sense state that would work. In other words, whatever state the micro-module is in (on or off), it will go to the other state if the sense changes from whatever state it is in, to the other.
oberkc Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 It is totally screwy having to turn a switch up/down or vice-versa to turn a light on That is not much different than the historically-typical three-way. Up or down has no meaning with those, either. Yes, I prefer up=on, but we have lived with other options for a long time. Theoretically, if there was enough space in the box, one could simply keep ALL the existing switches and install a micro module somewhere to power the fixture. Instant insteon.
apostolakisl Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 It is totally screwy having to turn a switch up/down or vice-versa to turn a light on That is not much different than the historically-typical three-way. Up or down has no meaning with those, either. Yes, I prefer up=on, but we have lived with other options for a long time. Theoretically, if there was enough space in the box, one could simply keep ALL the existing switches and install a micro module somewhere to power the fixture. Instant insteon. No, not up or down, up and down. With sense if you turn the light on with a switch, then turn the light off with Insteon command, then want to turn it back on with a switch, you need to turn power off to the sense wire, then back on again. Depending on which way that particular switch is at that time it might be up down, or down up, but either way you are switching back and forth, which ain't right.
MWareman Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 No, not up or down, up and down. With sense if you turn the light on with a switch, then turn the light off with Insteon command, then want to turn it back on with a switch, you need to turn power off to the sense wire, then back on again. Depending on which way that particular switch is at that time it might be up down, or down up, but either way you are switching back and forth, which ain't right. That's not how I understand the sense to work on this module, but I'm probably wrong. I don't have one yet. Does a change in the sense wire TOGGLE the output (the way I hope it works) - or does the output follow the state of the sense wire (and controlling via insteon essentially let's the two get out of sync with each other - necessitating the double switch)? If the latter, I guess I won't be buying any. Michael.
oberkc Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 you need to turn power off to the sense wire, then back on again. Depending on which way that particular switch is at that time it might be up down, or down up, but either way you are switching back and forth, which ain't right. Does a change in the sense wire TOGGLE the output (the way I hope it works) - or does the output follow the state of the sense wire (and controlling via insteon essentially let's the two get out of sync with each other - necessitating the double switch)? Ugh. This I did not understand. I assumed a simple change of state in the sense wire would toggle the output. This would be no good...I agree.
oberkc Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 From the user manual: "Because Micro module comes programmed for latching switches, 3-way toggle mode is enabled by default. Normally, a latching switch reads the switch’s up position as on and down position as off. For example, if you turn Micro module on from the latching switch and off from another controller, the switch is still in the up (on) position; turning Micro module back on from the switch would require you to tap the switch down, then up again. The 3-way toggle mode overrides this sense feature, so in that same scenario—turning Micro module on at the switch and off from another controller, so switch is in up (on) position—you could then turn Micro module on at the switch by tapping it down."
apostolakisl Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 No, not up or down, up and down. With sense if you turn the light on with a switch, then turn the light off with Insteon command, then want to turn it back on with a switch, you need to turn power off to the sense wire, then back on again. Depending on which way that particular switch is at that time it might be up down, or down up, but either way you are switching back and forth, which ain't right. That's not how I understand the sense to work on this module, but I'm probably wrong. I don't have one yet. Does a change in the sense wire TOGGLE the output (the way I hope it works) - or does the output follow the state of the sense wire (and controlling via insteon essentially let's the two get out of sync with each other - necessitating the double switch)? If the latter, I guess I won't be buying any. Michael. That is also how I would HOPE it would work (toggle the sense causes a toggle of the load, paying no attention to the actual state). Or at least have that as an option. But, it does not appear that such an option exists. It really does not seem like it would be a challenge to write that logic into the firmware. In my mind, this would be a very well liked feature.
Xathros Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Unless I completely misunderstood, oberkc's quote of the micro module's manual indicates that this option DOES exist in the current production modules. -Xathros
oberkc Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Unless I completely misunderstood, oberkc's quote of the micro module's manual indicates that this option DOES exist in the current production modules. That is the same conclusion I reached from reading the manaul. Unfortunately, I cannot confirm by personal experience.
Xathros Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I think I have one of these modules in my parts box. I will see if I can arrange a bench test this weekend and post my findings. -Xathros
apostolakisl Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 OK, I read it again, and indeed it sounds like it may toggle the light with a toggle in sense. I had read that manual prior to oberkc's post but I guess I read to quick. I think I was biased because the older discontinued switches with sense built-in didn't do that if I recall.
apnar Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 I've really wanted to use the micro module this way but most of my uses the 100w maximum on it is way too limiting. I'd absolutely love to see a standard SwitchLinc dimmer with a sense input. Anyone know if they've ever made one or plan to? I'd try to find a 2476SS but it appears they were only on/off not dimming (not to mention only single band).
oberkc Posted August 28, 2013 Posted August 28, 2013 Yes, 100W is pretty limiting, especially since it is not rated for LED(!). I guess they must have thought they would...well, I don't know what they were thinking. Perhaps they should have kept the inlinelinc for higher loads. Keep in mind that, as apostolakisl points out, other (mostly discontinued) devices such as the inlinelinc did not have this 3-way mode where it would toggle at any change in state.
Draudio Posted November 2, 2013 Posted November 2, 2013 I am confused, the 2443 on the SmartHome site is rated at 700w/240VAC max. http://www.smarthome.com/2443-222/INSTEON-Micro-On-Off-Module/p.aspx My question is how best to test my existing sensor lights to see if they are momentary or latching switches? I assume I have to match the setting of the 2443 to the action of the sensor. DR
Brian H Posted November 2, 2013 Posted November 2, 2013 The 2443-222 has a relay output and does not dim. It does have the 700 Watt/240 Volt rating. The 100 watt limit is for the 2442-222 dimmer model.
Draudio Posted November 2, 2013 Posted November 2, 2013 Got it, thanks! (Sorry I didn't catch the model difference...)
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