Issues with LED Lights

[andrew77]

Hi Guys;

 

I've been replacing some light bulbs with dimmable LED bulbs.

I've found a few issues that I was hoping others may have had and solved or could shed a little light on.

 

I have two hall lights. When I put two LED bulbs in one fixture (the other has no lights in) they dim and perform well.

When I put LED bulbs in both fixtures they flicker and flash on without dimming.

 

Also, I put them in a fixture with a SWl and it locked up. I had to airgap it to get it working again. (havent had any issues with that one since)

 

Any others out there tried LED bulbs?

 

Drew

[oberkc]

Lot's are using LED bulbs with insteon switches, including me. I do not recognize the symptoms you describe. Sometimes LED bulbs will flash or glow when switched off, but that sounds different than what you describe.

 

I think I might try different combinations of bulbs to see if you can isolate the problem to a single one.

[andrew77]

All bulbs work great in another fixture.

Once I put my christmas tree LEDs on a lamplinc and it didnt work well. I was told to put an adaptor or something else as the LEDs didnt draw enough power.

 

The six LED bulbs are in a chandelier. Although the chandelier also has a regular bulb in it. I can take it out and see if the issue resurfaces.

 

Are there better LED bulb brands that i should purchase?

 

I have two brands. The Philips bulbs seem to come on at 20% and then dim perfectly (shutting off at 20% again, not a smooth 0-100 dim like a tungsten)

The Feit bulbs dim 0-100 perfectly but they gave me the odd issues.

I also find they flicker slightly at any level below 30%

 

I apologize for so much info but I'm looking forward to embracing LEDs.

 

 

Drew

[Brian H]

Standard Switchlinc that has a neutral power connection and not the two wire Switchlinc that steals power through the loads?

 

Dimmable LED bulbs have a receptive peak current and start up inrush current specification that can be quite high.

I have seen many reputable LED bulbs that use 10 watts of power. Have the manufacturer say when adding up wattages. Use 80 watts for you calculations. Six bulbs may actually be causing your problems.

Many times the bulb manufacturer will have this information on the specifications sheets but rarely on the packaging the bulbs come in. You also can find tested with charts for LED bulbs and major manufacturers dimmer switch models.

 

Smooth dimming is also hard to find, unless you are using a dimmer designed to specifically be used with dimmable LED bulbs.

[oberkc]

Are you sure your bulbs are dimmable. Not all LED bulbs are.

 

None of my LED bulbs dim continuously to zero. They all cut off at 10 or 20 percent somewhere.

 

For reasons I do not recall (nor with confidence), my impression of Feit LED bulbs are not as good as that of others.

 

All the problems I have seen or noticed are with LED bulbs when the insteon switch is off. I have not noticed an LED bulb flashing when the switch is on. I suppose flashing could occur when at a very low dim setting, however.

[andrew77]

All bulbs are dimmable. They dim in other fixtures (controlled by a SWL)

I may try to put them in other fixtures controlled by KPLs etc…

 

I did have some weirdness once when I had different versions of SWL (older) and KPLs (newer) and it made some lights in a scene flicker during ramp up and down.

 

The Philips cut out at 10 or 20% but these Feit dim perfectly.

 

Maybe LED bulbs are still in their infancy and not great yet?

[andrew77]

Second night in a row I had to go out and air gap a swl to shut off led lights.

They seem to work normally but when it comes time to shut them off via the timer

The stick on. Can't shut them off from the GUI or any programmed button inside.

 

Last night it was one swl. Tonight it's the other one.

 

Any Ideas would be great.

 

I don't know if having these led lights are screwing with my insteon stuff.

 

Drew

[madcodger]

When you say last night it was one swl, tonight it's another, do you mean the first swl performed correctly on the second night, while still having LED bulbs? If so, sounds like a communication issue rather than switch issue.

[andrew77]

Yes, exactly.

 

The only thing I've changed is I've added LED bulbs.

(that being said, I'll spend the rest of the day figuring out what is different)

 

They cant be causing comm issues, can they?

 

When I boot up the ISY GUI, I get the usual "cant communicate" warning for the remotes (I have two remotelincs and one remotelinc2)

but it also just said it cant communicate with the 'Kitchen Sink" (its a SWL)

 

Again, any thoughts would be great. This stuff is solid until one thing happens and I cant find the source of the issue.

 

Drew

[andrew77]

It seems like the SWLs are taking turns. (I first SWl locked up and I had to airgap it again.)

 

I can only think that its the LED lights. I don't think there's anything new in the house that can be causing

line noise. (but I have been wrong almost every time I've posted )

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Drew

[oberkc]

They cant be causing comm issues, can they?

 

I would not disregard the possibility. Those error messages sound like an indication that you have something going on causing communication problems.

 

For the purposes of troubleshooting, you could certainly remove the LED bulbs on a temporary basis. Replace with an incandescent and see if your problems go away (including the kitchen sink SWL).

 

This stuff is solid until one thing happens and I cant find the source of the issue

 

Yes. Troubleshooting can be difficult. Often times, in my experience, however, it is not "one thing". Equally likely is it being the culmination of several things, with the latest being the last straw. You may termporarily solve your problem by removing LEDs, but there may still be some underlying communication difficulties yet to be severe enough to cause failed responses.

 

Learn to use the ISY scene test. It can be helpful in characterizing your environment.

[madcodger]

Drew,

 

I have a house full of Insteon from over the past 3-5 years (brought a few with me from being spares for previous house) and many LED lights. They work very well together, although I rarely dim more than 40%. BUT, LEDs can vary greatly in their quality. Philips is normally great, but a bad run can happen anywhere. This sounds like a line noise issue. If you can replace the bulbs with incandescents - even temporarily - that should allow you to diagnose this. The only other thing that comes immediately to mind are other appliances that might be concurrently on, such as a tv. Many are known to create line noise, and that can be solved with a filter on the appliance (simple plugin device at outlet).

 

Joe

[madcodger]

Drew, another thought... What are the wattages of these bulbs, and the wattages of he incandescents they replaced? And what happens if you don't dim the bulbs? Can you give more specifics on how these are being used?

[andrew77]

The old bulbs were 40W and 60W

 

The LED ones are 11W and 7.5 W

 

The 11W worked fine in the fixtures where the 7.5 flickered

The 7.5 flickered only when there were all four bulbs in the fixtures. When there were just two there were no problems.

 

The 11W bulbs are now out in two out buildings and each has frozen about 50%.

(barn 1 on night one, barn two on night two, barn one on night three)

I'm going to see what tonight brings.

 

I've left my Lamplinc unplugged to remove one variable

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12274

 

I cant seem to remove the lamplinc from the ISY and I cant query anything it seems.

 

 

 

I'm getting a comm error sometimes on the kitchen light.

(I've not changed the bulbs in those, they're regular incandescent)

 

Drew

[oberkc]

The 11W bulbs are now out in two out buildings and each has frozen about 50%.

Frozen?

 

The 7.5 flickered only when there were all four bulbs in the fixtures. When there were just two there were no problems.

 

Perhaps I need to better understand "flickered". I have some LED lights whose light output very slightly (though visibly) changes rapidly (once or twice each second0, but only when dimmed. Is this what you are seeing?

 

I cant seem to remove the lamplinc from the ISY and I cant query anything it seems.

 

Can you disable it? This sounds like either comm errors or database corruption, either with the devices, or with the PLM. It is possible to restore either, but I would prefer you searched in the wiki or these forums before restoring the PLM based upon my suggestion. Perhaps others could confirm.

 

I'm getting a comm error sometimes on the kitchen light.

(I've not changed the bulbs in those, they're regular incandescent)

 

Comm errors on the kitchen light are not necessarily caused by the bulbs. It could be many things. Bulbs CAN cause problems, but are not the ONLY cause of problems.

[andrew77]

The SWLs freeze on at 50% or so. I cant affect them through any GUI and the switch itself does nothing.

I have to pull the tab to get them working again.

 

When the lights flickered they werent just lightly flickering they were actually flashing on and off until the ramping was done. (I checked and they are dimmable, they dim perfectly in another fixture)

 

I'm at work right now so I'll try to disable the Lamplinc when I get home.

 

Drew

[oberkc]

The SWLs freeze on at 50% or so. I cant affect them through any GUI and the switch itself does nothing. I have to pull the tab to get them working again.

 

Wow. I have no experience that would suggest a cause for that...only random speculation with no basis in actual knowledge.

 

When the lights flickered they werent just lightly flickering they were actually flashing on and off until the ramping was done.

 

the only time I have experienced LEDs flashing as you describe is when controlled by an insteon switch when off. They (and some CFLs) might flash like that about once every few seconds.

 

I don't know for sure, but it sure seems to me that you have problems beyond a single bulb, or single bulb brand or type.

[andrew77]

Tonight barn 2 SWL froze. Its like theyre taking turns.

 

I'm going to pull all the LED lights and see if that helps.

 

Drew

[madcodger]

I think pulling the LEDs is about all you can do at this stage. Go back to incandescents for a night or two, and if all OK I'd try introducing one LED at a time. Isolate the variables...

[andrew77]

I've made a few discoveries.

 

My son has a new little LED monitor for his PS3.

I unplugged it yesterday and the barn lights didnt freeze last night.

Too early to tell so I'm going to keep an eye on it for the next few days.

 

I retried the LED lights in the hallway fixtures.

 

When two LED bulbs and two incandescent bulbs are in the fixtures they dim and brighten with a perfect ramp up and down.

 

When all four bulbs are LEDs they don't dim well. They flicker and flash on etc…

 

I put six LED bulbs in a chandelier that has two incandescent bulbs as well. They ramp up and down perfectly.

When I take out the incandescent bulbs they flash on, no real ramp up or down that I can see.

 

I had a feeling it was like the Christmas tree LEDs I had a issue with a few years ago. I learned (on this forum of course)

if they don't dim properly it may be because there's not enough draw. I plugged a phone charger in to it as well as the LED Christmas lights

And they work perfectly.

 

Any thoughts on a work around besides using incandescents and LEDS at the same time?

 

Drew

[andrew77]

Has anyone had issues like this with LED bulbs?

 

The insteon stuff seems to need bigger draw than the LEDs have to ensure they ramp up and down properly.

 

The lights froze in the barn again. (only the steel barn, it has four LED bulbs, the wood barn that only froze once has two bulbs)

 

Drew

[arw01]

I forgot are you using dimmer switches or relay switches?

 

I have not had any issues with relay switches with CFL, I have had an issue with dimmers and CFL, but all of my LED's so far have played nice with the dimmers.

 

What brand are the LED's you have in there, are they all the same brand, wattage etc? I wonder if missing them up a little might help?

 

In my bathroom I have 1 incandescent and three different LED lights, each LED comes on at a different point and different brightness with a slow ramp up.

 

Alan

[andrew77]

The barns have SWL working the LEDs.

It seems to only freeze when the timer comes on and then tries to shut off.

If the LEDs are on, I can shut them off no problem.

If the timer turns them on, I can still shut them off.

When the timer turns them on and shuts them off, only the barns freeze on.

 

The brand is Philips. They didnt flicker when I put them in the house.

My Feit brand did flicker in the house when there were just LED lights on the load.

 

 

Very odd. I have a filterlinc that I'm putting on my son's TV to see if that solves it.

 

Drew

[andrew77]

I've replaced my PLM. I'm going to try reintroducing the LED bulbs and see if the issues are the same as before.

 

Drew