Scenes turn on but do not dim properly - different results

[zorax2]

As the title mentions, I am getting strange results from scenes where the ramp rates are inconsistent depending on what switch is used or if the scene is activated by the ISY.

 

I've got a new installation of about 35 new SwitchLincs (2477D v.41) and KeypadLincss (2334-2 v.43) with an ISY994i/IR PRO. I've also got some older 2476D v.38 SwitchLinc devices and 6 2443 v2.0 access points. The electrical system is comprised of 2 150 watt services coming into the house. I believe I've properly bridged the phases on each panel. For the first pair of access points on each panel, I put the first access point into an outlet on an even numbered breaker and the second access point on an outlet associated with the odd numbered breaker directly across from it.

 

I have many instances where I have setup scenes consisting of 2 SwitchLincs and 1 KeypadLinc where I'm getting strange results. For the purpose of testing, I setup a scene similar to most that I plan to use with each device as a controller / responder, clicked on "Apply Changes to All Devices" and set the ramp rate to 19 seconds to make it easy to see what is happening.

 

For the previously described test scene, I get the following results:

 

Turning on the lights via either SwitchLinc results in a "Fast On".

Turning on the lights via the KeypadLinc results in an approximate ramp rate of 5 seconds.

Turning the lights on from the Managed Scene page via the ISY activates the scene correctly with a 19 second ramp rate.

In all circumstances over repeated attempts, the light turns on - it just doesn't "act" like it is part of a scene with the appropriate ramp rate. I get the virtually the same results on all similarly configured scenes.

 

Here is the diagnostic log from this particular scene:

 

Sat 09/21/2013 02:40:32 AM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 12 13 00 06

 

Sat 09/21/2013 02:40:33 AM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

 

Sat 09/21/2013 02:40:33 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 25.08.60 25.13.2A E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

 

----- Main Entry Chandelier Test Results -----

[Failed] Entry Chand 24.EB.FE.1 (24 EB FE 1)

[Failed] Entry Chand 24.EA.92.1 (24 EA 92 1)

[Failed] Ct Closet D - 25.08.60.D (25 8 60 6)

----- Main Entry Chandelier Test Results -----

Sat 09/21/2013 02:40:40 AM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 00 00 12 CF 13 00

 

Sat 09/21/2013 02:40:40 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.12 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

I've run this diagnostic on most of my scenes with the similar all "Failed" result. In other scenes, some devices were marked "Failed" and other devices in the same scene succeeded.

 

I'm not sure what to do next. Have I programmed the scene incorrectly? Is something else going on? I'm very puzzled given that all of my virtual multi-way switches always work to turn on the load (usually Halogen PAR30LN bulbs) but they don't dim correctly. I really appreciate any help as I'm uncertain as to what to try to get things to work properly at this point.

[zorax2]

I found the following post which allowed me to fix the scenes to work correctly though I still get a similar error log on the scene test. Here is the thread I followed for scenes written by apostolakisl:

 

To set up a simple virtual 3 way where all the switches do the same thing.

 

1) Create a scene by clicking "link management" then "new scene"

2) Add the switches. Right click the switch in the main tree on the left and click "add to scene" then use the list of scene names and click on it. Check the box to make it a controller. You can also drag and drop it. Repeat for all switches in scene.

3) Click on the scene in the left column tree.

4) In the right pane in the middle, click "apply changes to all devices"

5) Slide the ramp rate and on level to where you want them.

6) Click on the individual devices under the scene name in the tree on the left.

7) For each device click in the right pane in the middle "copy scene attributes from. . "

 

The 2 key steps are step 4 and step 7.

 

Step 4 makes all the switches respond to the scene command the same. No matter what activates the scene, all the devices will do the same thing (except the switch you actually pushed, it may or may not respond the same, see next step). Obviously, don't click this if you want some switches to do different things.

 

Step 7 makes each switch respond the same as the scene when you physically push on THAT SWITCH. When you physically push a switch, it responds to "applied locally" attributes, not per any scene it may be a part of. Again, don't click that button if you want the button to behave differently when you physically push it vs when it responds to a scene.

 

The switches and ramp rates now seem to be working correctly; however, the scene test continues to indicate [FAILED] every time even though everything appears to work properly 100% of the time. Why does the diagnostic indicated [FAILED] even though everything works properly? What can or should I do to fix it?

[Brian H]

The Scene Test actually is not testing the scene itself. It is doing a worse case communications test with all the devices in the scene.

 

You may have some marginal communications to some of the devices in the scene.

 

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index ... Scene_Test

 

It is possible for a scene to run fine but due to marginal communications. Fail the Scene Test. Though a failure does indicate you have marginal communications and possible issues later. If things get worse.

 

Do you have two verified {four tap set button communications test} Dual Band Devices on opposite phases of the home?

[oberkc]

For the first pair of access points on each panel, I put the first access point into an outlet on an even numbered breaker and the second access point on an outlet associated with the odd numbered breaker directly across from it.

 

As Brian H mentioned, there are instructions in the user manual to determine whether your access points are on opposite phases. It is worth confirming.

 

The other common problem is that folks can install the PLM on a circuit with lots of other gadgets and electronics. This can interfere with insteon communications. Yes, there are solutions if this is your case.

[zorax2]

When I called Smarthome technical support, the tech suggested that given the number of devices within the home - all phases should be bridged with excellent communication over the network. Nevertheless, he gave this approach to bridging the phases using the 6 access points that I have:

 

"Bridging the Old Fashion Way"

There is no need to use tap/set method. Bridge phases for each panel. For panel #1, turn off an odd numbered circuit on the left side of panel #1 and find an outlet on that circuit with no power, plug in the access point and turn on the breaker. Then, for panel #1, turn off an even numbered circuit on the right side of panel #1 and find an outlet on that circuit with no power plug in the access point and turn on the breaker. The phases on that panel are now bridged. Repeat the process for the second panel. For panel #2, turn off an odd numbered circuit on the left side of panel #2 and find an outlet on that circuit with no power, plug in the access point and turn on the breaker. Then, for panel #2, turn off an even numbered circuit on the right side of panel #2 and find an outlet on that circuit with no power plug in the access point and turn on the breaker The phases on that panel are now bridged.

 

I completed those steps using 4 of the access points and put the 2 remaining access points on the outlets on the farthest corner of the home from the service panels.

 

As to scene testing, I tried a different approach using the diagnostic scene test. I set up scenes with all switches acting as responders. I started with a small group of switches and the results were successful. I then I added a few more switches and the results were all successful. Seeing that everything appeared to work correctly, I added all of my devices into a scene and did the a scene test diagnostic and I believe nearly all devices failed the test. I thought that given the benefit of a mesh network would be that everything would work even better and was surprised by this result. What do I do now?

[oberkc]

I believe you got bad advice from smarthome. Odd and even circuits are not necessarily on different "phase".

 

My suggestions stand....perform the access point test in the manual to confirm and check to see what other devices are plugged in the same circuit as the PLM.

[Brian H]

I would also recommend doing the four tap tests. As not all breaker boxes are mapped out that way.

Maybe test with the PLM as the test originator and seeing that one or more dual band devices respond. One or more receives the PLM and is on the same phase. One or more receives the PLM and is on the opposite phase.

 

Are the Dual Band Switchlincs mounted in metal electrical boxes? That can effect their RF range.

 

Is the PLM on the same circuit as the computing equipment?

Also the PLM should not be on the output side of an UPS or a filtered surge strip.

[zorax2]

There are no metal electrical boxes in the house. I am not using an outlet strip or surge protector for the ISY or the PLM. Brian - I could not find instructions for using the PLM for the phase test. I didn't quite understand how to use the PLM as described in your post. "One or more receives the PLM and is on the same phase. One or more receives the PLM and is on the opposite phase." - seemed to be the same thing.

 

I followed these steps for my 6 2443 Rev 2.0 Access Points - hopefully I did this correctly:

 

1. Turned off service panel #2 with the main breaker

2. Plugged access point #1 into active outlet on the far side of house, tapped set button 4 times quickly

3. Tested various outlets until I found another active outlet on the far side of the house where the #2 access point LED began blinking bright green

4. Tapped the set button on access point #1 one time - both lights turned dim green

5. Tapped the set button on access point #1 4 times quickly

6. Tested various outlets until I found another active outlet in the middle of the house where the #3 access point LED began blinking bright green

7. Tapped the set button on access point #1 one time - both lights turned dim green

 

I followed a similar process with service panel #2:

 

1. Turned off service panel #1 with the main breaker

2. Plugged access point #4 into active outlet on middle of the house (no outlets on far side of house), tapped set button 4 times quickly

3. Tested various outlets until I found another active outlet near the far side of the house where the #5 access point LED began blinking bright green

4. Tapped the set button on access point #4 one time - both lights turned dim green

5. Tapped the set button on access point #4 4 times quickly

6. Tested various outlets until I found another active outlet in the middle of the house where the #6 access point LED began blinking bright green

7. Tapped the set button on access point #4 one time - both lights turned dim green

 

I then turned both service panels on. I've got the Access Point 2.4+ instruction sheet and I believe the revision 2.0 LED procedure is the same; however, the table shown on the instructions were somewhat unclear. It is possible that the table is for mixing different versions of Access Points within the same system as it stated the following for correct setup:

 

All models Rev 2.0 or higher have a dual color (red/green) LED. The table then gives the following for a correctly installed Access Point:

Initiator's (First Access Point) LED Color - Dual-color (when I was in seek mode after tapping 4 times, the LED turned on bright solid green)

Receivers' (subsequent Access Points) LED Color - White (I never had white - just dim green, alternating red/green, and blinking bright green)

Resulting Receivers' LED Behavior - Bright Solid White (I had Bright Blinking Green).

 

The most important question - given I did each service panel separately using the step-by-step process I described, should have both phases been properly bridged for each panel?

 

After doing the new bridging, I placed the ISY in different locations within my home with the following results with 42 devices:

 

Office (a dedicated circuit with a number of computers and office equipment): 14 succeeded, 28 failed

Sunroom (a dedicated circuit where the only item on that circuit was the ISY): 25 succeeded, 17 failed

Mechanical Room (a dedicated circuit with water softener, outside GFIs, air exchanger and lights - though it is my preferred location due to centralized IR / AV wiring): 36 succeeded, 6 failed

 

The location change for the ISY to the mechanical room resulted in a huge improvement. Assuming I correctly bridged both panels, how do I go about determining the cause of the 6 switches that failed the test? Do I put FilterLincs in front of all the power strips for computers and A/V equipment throughout the home?

 

Thank you again for all your help, guidance and suggestions!

[oberkc]

Phase test sounds performed correctly to me. My understanding is that nearly all houses in the US have two legs from the electrical system. Numbers of electrical panels does not matter, so long as you have bridged those two legs...which you have done.

 

Your testing of the PLM is quite revealing. Since you prefer the mechanical room location, I would focus there, and on the six suspect devices. First, run the scene test several times. If it passes some, I would declare victory and move on to other things. If it failed consistently, I would take the time to search for a cause.

 

First, I would filter your computer stuff. That type and absolute quantity of stuff is almost certainly causing some problems, and I would hope to knock it all off from a single filter.

 

Once done, identify the circuit(s) on which the failing devices reside. Seek out other suspect electronics on that circuit. Temporarily unplug any to see if the situation improves. If so, filter those.

 

Finally, given how important is the PLM, I would take extra precautions to ensure a clean circuit for it. Temporarily unplug all devices and run some scene tests to see if there is any improvement. If so, filters are cheap!

[apostolakisl]

There are panels that don't alternate leg 1/leg 2 every other breaker location. But they are few and far between. The ones that don't do it this way have a crazy breaker design for the 240v breakers where there are 2 breakers where one is nested inside the other. There may be other designs beside that, but it is the only example I know of. So if you have the typical 240v breaker that bridges 2 adjacent "normal" breakers (without hopping over in intervening one), then you almost certainly have the typical alternating legs.

 

It has been my experience that adding more devices doesn't always improve communication. I have added new devices to my home and watched as previously reliable devices became flaky. I can't say that I know how to explain this except that perhaps timing issues or "clashing" of communications occurs.

[Brian H]

My old Federal Pacific Breaker box has only a few 220 volt positions.

Also if 1/2 sized breakers are used. Adjacent breakers can be on the same phase.

[apostolakisl]

My old Federal Pacific Breaker box has only a few 220 volt positions.

Also if 1/2 sized breakers are used. Adjacent breakers can be on the same phase.

 

Yeah, but in a split breaker, both occupy the same even/odd slot.

 

Didn't those Fed Pacific ones get recalled or something? I thought I read about that.

[IndyMike]

After doing the new bridging, I placed the ISY in different locations within my home with the following results with 42 devices:

 

Office (a dedicated circuit with a number of computers and office equipment): 14 succeeded, 28 failed

Sunroom (a dedicated circuit where the only item on that circuit was the ISY): 25 succeeded, 17 failed

Mechanical Room (a dedicated circuit with water softener, outside GFIs, air exchanger and lights - though it is my preferred location due to centralized IR / AV wiring): 36 succeeded, 6 failed

 

The location change for the ISY to the mechanical room resulted in a huge improvement. Assuming I correctly bridged both panels, how do I go about determining the cause of the 6 switches that failed the test? Do I put FilterLincs in front of all the power strips for computers and A/V equipment throughout the home?

 

Thank you again for all your help, guidance and suggestions!

 

Hello zorax2,

 

Before investing in a truckload of filterlincs, I would suggest focusing on the Scene Test itself. The Scene Test can be a powerful tool, but it can also be tripped up and give misleading results. Performing a scene test of 42 devices increases the likelihood that external communications will interfere and cause a scene test failure.

 

What the scene test does:

 

1) ISY executes a Group "fast on" command for your selected scene. Unfortunately, the ISY will quickly reset the event viewer window (2 seconds) and overwrite this command. I managed to grab a screen capture of one of my smaller scene tests this morning.

 

The first line below is the ISY instructing the PLM to issue a "Group fast on" to group x27. The 5th line is a question mark - I had no clue this was occurring. The ISY is issuing a second "Group fast on" command to group x30. In short, I think this in incorrect (i.e. I have an issue with this scene).

 

 

 

2) ISY executes a All link "fast off" command for the selected scene. The following is the all link command for my group 27 scene.

 

Sun 09/22/2013 10:19:18 : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 27 13 00 06

 

3) The PLM interrogates all the scene responders. When complete, the PLM will respond with a "Clean up Report" of the results. A "06" in the last position indicates success. A "15" indicates that the polling was interrupted.

 

Any activity will cause the PLM to abort the polling process (motion sensors, wired transmitters, X10 devices, programs, ELK commands). In short, the difficulty in successfully completing a scene test increases quickly for a large scene. I intentionally interrupted the Poll below by pressing the "ON" button of a KPL during the poll process.

Sun 09/22/2013 10:28:19 : [std-Cleanup Ack] 19.46.CE-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Sun 09/22/2013 10:28:19 : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 15

----- SC BSMT Test Results -----

[Failed] BSMT Bed (14 78 3B 1)

[Failed] BSMT Video Cans (17 F7 B6 1)

[Failed] BSMT Fam Cans (1A 4F 19 1)

[Failed] Master KPL G - BSMT (A E5 EC 7)

[Failed] Christmas Tree (13 A 51 1)

[Failed] BSMT KPL Game (F FF F1 1)

[succeeded] Master Table KPL G - BSMT (19 46 CE 7)

[Failed] BSMT Stair (1A 5D 6D 1)

----- SC BSMT Test Results -----

Sun 09/22/2013 10:28:25 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 00 00 27 CF 13 00

Sun 09/22/2013 10:28:25 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.27 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

How to make the Scene Test (more) reliable:

• 
  [*:2cndqvnb]As the test indicates, you must disable programs. Any program that is initiated by a change in device status WILL interrupt the PLM polling. I've created a "conditional" folder with a variable for enabling/disabling programs. Set the variable, and the folder (and all programs) are off.
  [*:2cndqvnb]Pending updates to devices - If you have devices with pending updates (green arrow), the updates will initiate during the scene test (causing it to fail). Disable automatic updates or (better) resolve the pending updates.
  [*:2cndqvnb]Motion sensors, IOlincs, Devices with load sensing (etc.) are a problem. No good way to disable these. The network must be quiet during the test or the PLM will abort.
  [*:2cndqvnb]Use smaller, Logical scenes - less chance of interruption during the test.
  [*:2cndqvnb]Always watch the PLM status response. A 15 indicates that the PLM was interrupted.
  Sun 09/22/2013 10:28:19 : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 15