Switchlinc v2 dimmers going crazy

[mdallshouse1]

I have been trying to replace my X10 dimmers with Switchlinc v2's and keep running into problems with two dimmers in one junction box. These are controlling low voltage lights over and under the cabinets that are connected using one electronic transformer for each set with line noise filters installed as well. Total load for each is 120w which is well below the specs for multi-gang installs.

 

Each dimmer works fine until I send some commands through the ISY - then one or the other loses it's mind, blinks and then turns full on until I airgap it to reset it. If I use one at a time, commands all work fine, it's only until I have one on and send commands to the other that one of them looses it.

 

This is turning out to be really frustrating, I was trying to replace my unreliable X10's with something that would work all the time - and this is not cutting it.

 

I have swapped out the dimmers (I bought four and these are the first two I wanted to replace) - so I don't think I rec'd bad units.

 

Any Ideas?

[upstatemike]

I assume your line noise filter is between the load wire of each switch and the electronic transformer. What model filters are you using?

[mdallshouse1]

Yes, the Leviton 6287 Noise Blocks are installed on the load line between the dimmers and transformers.

[Algorithm]

mdallshouse1,

 

Have you done a factory reset on your switches, to ensure there are no residual X-10 addresses?

[mdallshouse1]

Yes - several times on the last one. The currrent one is brand new from SmartHome. I've factory reset it once - no change.

[Algorithm]

Each dimmer works fine until I send some commands through the ISY - then one or the other loses it's mind, blinks and then turns full on until I airgap it to reset it. If I use one at a time, commands all work fine, it's only until I have one on and send commands to the other that one of them looses it.

 

To recap:

1. Each switch can be operated locally, one at a time, without issue.

2. The problem only occurs when one or the other switch is commanded remotely.

3. The problem only occurs when one or the other switch is on when the remote command occurs--i.e. remote command is successful if both switches are off.

4. The problem only occurs when the opposite switch to the one receiving the command, is on--i.e. if one switch is off, the other can be successfully commanded on and off remotely.

 

Is that correct?

 

What happens when a switch is operated locally while the other switch is on--success or failure?

 

What happens when the remote command is from a device other than ISY--test by linking some other SwitchLinc or ControLinc to the problem switch(es)?

[mdallshouse1]

To recap:

1. Each switch can be operated locally, one at a time, without issue.

Correct

2. The problem only occurs when one or the other switch is commanded remotely.

Correct - this even includes a query of the problem devices or all devices

3. The problem only occurs when one or the other switch is on when the remote command occurs--i.e. remote command is successful if both switches are off.

Correct - this is why I was thinking it may be a heat problem.

4. The problem only occurs when the opposite switch to the one receiving the command, is on--i.e. if one switch is off, the other can be successfully commanded on and off remotely.

Correct

 

Is that correct?

 

What happens when a switch is operated locally while the other switch is on--success or failure? Success

 

What happens when the remote command is from a device other than ISY--test by linking some other SwitchLinc or ControLinc to the problem switch(es)?

 

I have just tried this - unlinked my problem dimmer from ISY and linked to my RemoteLinc. It worked for about and hour with over 50 commands from ISY and Remotelinc to each dimmer respectively and then lost it again. Now it even goes full on and locks up when no commands are sent from any devices. It really must be a heat issue.

 

I also installed he first Switchlinc that appeared to be malfunctioning in another location - its only a single gang switch and it seems to be working fine there.

 

I am also wondering if it may be the way I have set of switches wired:

 

Single +/-/g line into the switch box

Both dimmers' line wire connected together with hot line in from breaker

Both dimmers' neutral wire connected with 1 neutral in and both neutrals out

Each dimmer has it's own load connection to the load line of it's individual transformer/light unit

All grounds wired together

 

Maybe it would help to have separate lines in for each dimmer even though they would be connected futher up the one in a junction in the attic.

 

[Sub-Routine]

I have broken a few LampLincs on electronic power supplies. Some supplies play fine and others, well...

 

When you get the flashing you should disconnect the power, you are on the verge of frying the dimmer switch.

 

Insteon dimers are very effective dimming conventional transformers, if that is an option for you. Otherwise you will have to experiment with different power supplies I'm afraid.

 

Rand

[mdallshouse1]

Are you suggesting that I go to a dimable magnetic transformer rather than an electronic transfomer?

[IndyMike]

mdallshouse1,

 

I've been watching this thread for a while and have finally come up with a question -

 

In your first post, you mentioned that you had been controlling these lights with X10 Dimmers.

 

Could you provide the model? I suspect that you were using XPDI3's (3 wire units with a neutral connection).

 

If the above is the case, the XPDI3's contain output compensation to allow them to function with Inductive, and Capacitive loads (electronic transformers). The Switchlinc does not contain this compensation, and is not rated for anything other than Incandescent loading.

 

As for why you units go nuts when you remotely activate one (with the other on) - Are you using a different remote ramp rate than the local rate?

 

It's possible that during a "soft start" (slow ramp up) your dimmer/LV transformer are becoming particularly unhappy and generating noise. Excessive noise can lock-up the devices and require a "air gap" to recover them.

 

If you're interested in experimenting, you could try "fast on" commands to the devices to try to limit the soft start exposure. I say "experiment" because I believe this is a bad situation and not one that you should leave in place. It implies that the circuit is going into oscillation and may be on the verge of burning up (output Triac or transformer) as Rand implied.

 

Another possibility could be your branch wiring (both hot and neutral). Depending on where your switch is on the branch circuit, you may have many connections (boxes) between the switch and the breaker panel. A loose wire nut on any of these connections can create havoc downstream for electronic devices. This is somewhat of a long shot, since I assume your X10 devices functioned previously in the same location.

 

If you do determine that the Electronic transformer is incompatible with the Switchlinc dimmer, I can't offer much guidance within the Insteon line. A Switchlinc relay would work, but I assume you want to retain the dimming feature. Other brands of Low Voltage lights may also function, but I have no direct experience here. Hopefully another forum member can chime in.

 

If you are interested, the following link describes how Lutron handles dimmers for Inductive and Capacitive loads:

 

http://www.lutron.com/applicationnotes/362219b.pdf

 

I had previously mentioned the X10 brand XPDI3. I believe they employ output stage compensation (output smoothing) to get around the transients when using these same loads.

 

Please let us know what you find,

IM

[RatRanch]

FYI, I've had good results pairing Juno Lighting 12V electronic transformers with Insteon dimmers.

 

-Jim

[mdallshouse1]

IndyMike:

 

The X10 dimmers I was using were Leviton - Don't have the exact model number now, but yes, they were three wire with neutral. They were reliable most of the time - about as good as X10 can be, responding to most commands, so I don't think I have any bad connections on the branch circuit.

 

I have tried several different ramp rates - it really has made no difference.

 

I think it has finally gotten to the point that the one dimmer is shot. I am going to put the X10 back in for now as I will be going on vacation at the end of the week.

 

When I get back, I am debating:

 

1) Install line voltage lighting

2) Replace the transformers with magnetic transformers

 

I really don't want to spend the money to replace the dimmers and transformers just to ruin another one. It may be easier and cheaper to just install new lighting.

 

Hey Jim,

 

Have you had any multi-ganged dimmers (at least two) with your Juno 12v electronic transformers?

[aLf]

mdallshouse1:

 

I too had a minor problem with low voltage running Kichler outdoor lights. Here is what I did...

 

I bought my transformer from,

 

http://www.robertssteplite.com/

 

The transformer I bought was rated at well above my installation wattage. They are very helpful and will walk you through that. I then used an Insteon SWL (1000 W) to control an outlet co-located with the transformer in my basement (cool area). The output of the transformer has 4 identical channels that produce the same amount of wattage ouput (12 V). I ran each of those outputs through normal mechanical toggles, the ouput from those toggles goes to each respective zone of my low voltage system (flower beds and steps in my case). Then ISY controls the Insteon address for that 1000 W switch, and yes I have it dimmed almost all the time. The SWL then controls 120 V input to the transformer thus making a variable 12 V output. The mechanical toggles are used in the winter when I want to "shut off" any of the 4 zones. This system has worked flawless now for three years. The folks at Roberts know just the ticket when it comes to "dimable" low voltage. I have never used their Step Lighting, but it too looks like a great item that could easily be incorporated into Insteon.

 

The transformer wasn't cheap, but you get what you pay for. This thing is a tank compared with Kichler's idea of a transformer. I also think that having this in the cool basement as compared with the damp outdoors will provide a much better installation.

 

I'd give this route a look before any other major surgery.

 

Regards,

 

aLf

[RatRanch]

 

Hey Jim,

 

Have you had any multi-ganged dimmers (at least two) with your Juno 12v electronic transformers?

 

No, in one room I have a 3-gang junction box with three Switchlincs in it, but only one of them is controlling a Juno electronic transformer.

 

-Jim

[IndyMike]

mdallshouse1,

 

Making the assumption that your Leviton units were HCM06 (nice - I have quite a few) they are rated for Incandescent and Magnetic Low Voltage Lighting. Leviton does de-rate these units for Mangetic transformers. Incandescent ranting of 600W (assuming you have the 600W version not the 1000W) and Magnetic rating of 450W.

 

My previous statement that the Switchlinc dimmers were rated for 600W Incandescent only was based on the current information on their website. The units themselves (back label) state 600 Watt load "for control of permanently installed incandescent, low voltage, neon, cold cathode, and general inductive fixtures only". No mention of a derating for these devices is made.

 

Both Leviton and SH derate their dimmers for side by side operation. A 600W dimmer becomes a 400W if placed next to another dimmer.

 

Getting back to your Leviton units and your feeling that this may be heat related:

1) What was the rating on the Leviton Switches (600W/1000W)?

2) Is this an outer wall install (i.e. insulated wall)?

3) Do you have metal or plastic boxes?

4) What is the load of your LV transformers (hard to believe it's over 400W).

 

I'm still having problems dealing with the "communication with one switch causes the other to go nuts". Most of the electronic transformers I've seen operate at around 25Khz. I can't visualize how a 25Khz noise source (with a filter) could affect the 130Khz Insteon communication. I have a much easier time believing that the switch outputs are actually oscillations (drawing excessive power) and that after some time the unit goes belly up.

 

Fortunately both ALF and RatRanch have provided some direct experience with LV lighting fixtures that work. Please let us know how this one turns out.

 

IM

 

IndyMike:

 

The X10 dimmers I was using were Leviton - Don't have the exact model number now, but yes, they were three wire with neutral. They were reliable most of the time - about as good as X10 can be, responding to most commands, so I don't think I have any bad connections on the branch circuit.

 

I have tried several different ramp rates - it really has made no difference.

 

I think it has finally gotten to the point that the one dimmer is shot. I am going to put the X10 back in for now as I will be going on vacation at the end of the week.

 

When I get back, I am debating:

 

1) Install line voltage lighting

2) Replace the transformers with magnetic transformers

 

I really don't want to spend the money to replace the dimmers and transformers just to ruin another one. It may be easier and cheaper to just install new lighting.

 

Hey Jim,

 

Have you had any multi-ganged dimmers (at least two) with your Juno 12v electronic transformers?