Status of switch keeps alternating

[ppitkin]

Hi,

after the feedback I had earlier this week on my problem regarding programs not running (http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12712) I have come across another issue which I need help with.

 

As recommended I changed my programs to use IF STATUS rather than IF CONTROL constructs and now I have a problem that the programs keep being activated even though the switch is not being pressed (manually) or having the status changed programatically.

 

What I did spot was that the program was always being activated immediately after the ISY nightly "Query ALL" Job was being run (this happens at 03:00 mornings). At 03:01.26 my program would fire as it saw the state of the HomeAway switch change state.

 

I decided to set up a little test as in my opinion there should be no reason for the switch to have changed state.

 

I created a program (which is triggered every 15 mins) which queries the state of the switch which is causing the issue....

 

If
       Time is Last Run Time for 'Query HomeAway Every 15 mins' + 15 minutes

Then
       Set 'HomeOrAway' Query

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

I then created 2 programs to send me mail notifications indicating the status of the switch (if it had changed).

 

If
       Status  'HomeOrAway' is On

Then
       Send Notification to 'StateReport' content 'HomeAway state ON'

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

If
       Status  'HomeOrAway' is Off

Then
       Send Notification to 'StateReport' content 'HomeAway state OFF'

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

If there are better ways of doing this please let me know. This was the only way I could come up with given my lack of experience with ISY programming.

 

Now the interesting thing that I observe is that every time the test runs to query the switch it comes back with a change in state for the switch i.e. I get emails every 15mins which say switch is ON, then switch is OFF, then switch is ON again and so on. Now it maybe that it is just luck that the emails show it is changing for each query and maybe it is changing more often in reality. However the problem is that it is changing state when queried. If I don't query the device the ISY admin console doesn't show a change in state.

 

Does anyone have any ideas what this can be? (IF CONTROL conditions are not being triggered by the switch).

 

Either the switch is faulty (only been installed for 4-6 weeks - although it is an old 2476ST Switchlinc Relay v.2C device!) or the switch is being told to change state by something - although I have nothing sending commands to it, its only linked to the PLM/ISY. BTW, in case it may be relevant, the Switchlinc has no load attached to it. It is just being used as the trigger to for a program to place the home into a "At Home" or "Away" mode.

 

One final piece of information that I can add is that a few weeks ago I also raised a topic in the Forum where I had experienced that another switchlink (2477S DualBand ON/Off v.43) was refusing to allow the lights to be switched off (this problem however seemed to vanish). At the same time I also reported that I had OutletLincs (non dimable Versions) on which you could hear the relay constantly being activated (so it was not possible to turn it off). This also occured without a load being attached and therefore should not have been anything to do with the autosense feature. This happend for both an old V.32 device and for a new V42 device.

 

I thought that the INSTEON protocol was robust enough to ensure that noise on the lines wouldn't be seen as "commands" for a device.

[LeeG]

Insteon messages are not created by noise. They are too complex and contain a CRC on each message for noise to be misconstrued as a valid message. If the devices have X10 addresses assigned noise can look like the old X10 message structure.

 

Look at the ISY Log for actions affecting the devices in question. Also bring up the Admin Console and watch the state of one of the switches. If something the ISY is aware of is changing the Status (Current State column) it should be reflected in what the Admin Console is displaying. Also the Event Viewer run at LEVEL 3 should show activity if initiated by the ISY.

 

Disable all the Programs temporarily and see if the stops the Status change activity.

[ppitkin]

Some more Information regarding my issue....

 

my property Manager was just in the Chalet and put the building into Home mode by manually turning the switch ON. This triggered my program as expected (because I have returned to using just the IF CONTROL check rather than the IF STATUS until I can get this to be reliable) .

 

When leaving the property he clicked the switch off to put the chalet into AWAY mode. This again activated the program as expected.

 

The additional Information that he gave me was that the LED lights on the switch were constantly cycling up and down!! What does this indicate? This is maybe why a query command keeps seeing a change in state of the switch - something is causing it to oscillate ON and OFF.

 

ideas?

[apostolakisl]

This sounds like a bad switch or a switch that needs a hard reset.

 

Your description leads me to believe that this switch is just constantly turning on/off/on/off all by itself. Unless you have some errant ISY program running in a loop I can't see any possible way for this to happen aside from a bad switch. While I have not seen this exact behavior, I did have one switch that did some crazy things all on its own.

 

What Lee says about noise is basically true. But just to be annoying, noise can still pretend to be an Insteon command, it is just that the odds are astronomically low. At one point someone calculated how long it would take hitting random keys (ie a monkey) on a keyboard before you get War and Peace. . . it can happen, just not likely.

[ppitkin]

Hi LeeG,

I have been watching the Event Viewer (set to level3) and the device statuses in the admin console all day. As I indicated in my original posting the ISY is not seeing a status change unless a query is issued.

 

There is no command traffic shown in the Event log apart from the output from a 2472D Dual Band OutletLink Dimmer (v40) which appears to keep switching on and off at random intervals (maybe due to an over sensitive autosense???). I have noticed that this particular dimmer always starts turning on and off whenever I start sending commands to other INSTEON devices!

 

No programs are running and I only have links created (using ISY Scene) between a few INSTEON devices such as 3 way and 4 way light switches and one light switch which controls the dimmer outletlinc mentioned above.

 

I agree that the INSTEON protocol should be resistant to noise. I do not make use of X10 and have never configured it on any INSTEON device.

 

The admin console is only showing a state Change if I do a query on the device. Left alone I dont see anything change on the screen. Question: if the state of a device was changing rapidly (every second or so) would the Admin Console be able to reflect that or does it limit the level of screen updates?

[apostolakisl]

Hi LeeG,

I have been watching the Event Viewer (set to level3) and the device statuses in the admin console all day. As I indicated in my original posting the ISY is not seeing a status change unless a query is issued.

 

There is no command traffic shown in the Event log apart from the output from a 2472D Dual Band OutletLink Dimmer (v40) which appears to keep switching on and off at random intervals (maybe due to an over sensitive autosense???). I have noticed that this particular dimmer always starts turning on and off whenever I start sending commands to other INSTEON devices!

 

No programs are running and I only have links created (using ISY Scene) between a few INSTEON devices such as 3 way and 4 way light switches and one light switch which controls the dimmer outletlinc mentioned above.

 

I agree that the INSTEON protocol should be resistant to noise. I do not make use of X10 and have never configured it on any INSTEON device.

 

The admin console is only showing a state Change if I do a query on the device. Left alone I dont see anything change on the screen. Question: if the state of a device was changing rapidly (every second or so) would the Admin Console be able to reflect that or does it limit the level of screen updates?

 

This really sounds like a bad switch.

[ppitkin]

apostolakisl,

Agree that it could be a bad device. What has me worried is that this has happened to so many different devices - where they just keep turning themselves on, or on and off.

 

What would be the best approach to resetting the device? Try air gap first, if that doesn't work power off the circuit, if that doesn't work then a full reset?

 

I need to get something reliable. WAF is nothing compared to trying to keep my Property Manager happy and convince him that automation makes life easier

[apostolakisl]

Hmmm, this is happening to multiple switches? That is weird. This sounds less like a hardware problem now.

 

Air gap is all that is needed to reset the switch. Turning off the breaker offers nothing more. Just be sure to fully pull the air gap and let it stay out for a good 10 seconds.

 

You might try resetting the programming as well. Pull the air gap for 10 seconds then push it in all the way and hold it for about 5 seconds and that wipes the switch. From there you could try restoring it from ISY. Alternatively, you could erase the switch from ISY and program it from scratch. I did have a problem once where ISY had some orphan links that it kept putting back into a switch and it wasn't until I started from scratch that things were fixed.

 

You can always swap the switch with a new one and see if the new one has the same problem. Or swap it with another switch that you are not having any issues with.