Insteon Sucks

[Goose66]

Seeing that it's getting close to Christmas, it is time for my holiday rant on how bad Insteon is. My activity is limited to the holidays these days because my $5000 Insteon investment has basically been relegated to controlling holiday lights because of unreliability. This year, unfortunately, even the holiday lights (ApplianceLinc modules) aren't working. What changed since last year? Well, I made the mistake of adding several dual-band switches in my setup to control my hall lights. Just throwing good money after bad at this point. The rule for Insteon is: the more devices you install, the more unreliable the system gets.

 

Here are my issues:

1. Three out of my four keypads won't except updates from the ISY and seem to have corrupt data. They show in the ISY console with exclamation points or green digital icons and many of the scenes that these keypads are in don't work. Doesn't matter where I move my PLM. The "Write Updates to Device" or "Restore Device" will run for a minute or two, sometimes reporting a failure, sometimes not, but always resulting in the keypad showing the same icons. For the fourth keypad, "Restore Device" and "Write Updates to Device" takes 5 minutes but seems to work.

2. We need to put FilterLincs on UPSes and surge suppressors, right? So tell me why all FilterLincs have the filtered outlet on the bottom oriented in such a way that it makes it impossible to plug in angled flat wall plugs that are commonplace on just about all UPSes and surge suppressors?

3. After 10 years of being in this thing, there are still no troubleshooting tools to determine where problems lie in the network or to see if a device is functioning or not. I know this is SmartHome's fault and not UDI's, but SmartHome doesn't give a crap about customer's needs and just keeps churning out this crap. I guess as long as it sells, that's all that matters. Just think how many more ISYes UDI could sell if the thing would do some troubleshooting, though?

4. Again with the FilterLincs -- I went to alot of trouble and expense to remove all CFLs from my house (after going to a lot of trouble and expense to put CFLs in the house) in order to improve reliability, but many fluroscent fixtures are fixed, like in my closets, workshop, garage, etc. Why would Smarthome not put a filter inside a switch?!? It could kill two birds with one stone!

5. Without proper tools, troubleshooting is impossible. If I had one device not working completely and disconnecting it solved all my problems, then great. Unfortunately, I have a complex system where everything seems to work 50-70% of the time (except for updating those KeypadLincs). So you can't recreate any issues with any reliability to go around and unplug crap and see if anything improves. Again, where are the troubleshooting tools?!?

 

Well, see you next Christmas.

[oberkc]

Have a merry Christmas.

[Teken]

Seeing that it's getting close to Christmas, it is time for my holiday rant on how bad Insteon is. My activity is limited to the holidays these days because my $5000 Insteon investment has basically been relegated to controlling holiday lights because of unreliability. This year, unfortunately, even the holiday lights (ApplianceLinc modules) aren't working. What changed since last year? Well, I made the mistake of adding several dual-band switches in my setup to control my hall lights. Just throwing good money after bad at this point. The rule for Insteon is: the more devices you install, the more unreliable the system gets.

 

Here are my issues:

1. Three out of my four keypads won't except updates from the ISY and seem to have corrupt data. They show in the ISY console with exclamation points or green digital icons and many of the scenes that these keypads are in don't work. Doesn't matter where I move my PLM. The "Write Updates to Device" or "Restore Device" will run for a minute or two, sometimes reporting a failure, sometimes not, but always resulting in the keypad showing the same icons. For the fourth keypad, "Restore Device" and "Write Updates to Device" takes 5 minutes but seems to work.

2. We need to put FilterLincs on UPSes and surge suppressors, right? So tell me why all FilterLincs have the filtered outlet on the bottom oriented in such a way that it makes it impossible to plug in angled flat wall plugs that are commonplace on just about all UPSes and surge suppressors?

3. After 10 years of being in this thing, there are still no troubleshooting tools to determine where problems lie in the network or to see if a device is functioning or not. I know this is SmartHome's fault and not UDI's, but SmartHome doesn't give a crap about customer's needs and just keeps churning out this crap. I guess as long as it sells, that's all that matters. Just think how many more ISYes UDI could sell if the thing would do some troubleshooting, though?

4. Again with the FilterLincs -- I went to alot of trouble and expense to remove all CFLs from my house (after going to a lot of trouble and expense to put CFLs in the house) in order to improve reliability, but many fluroscent fixtures are fixed, like in my closets, workshop, garage, etc. Why would Smarthome not put a filter inside a switch?!? It could kill two birds with one stone!

5. Without proper tools, troubleshooting is impossible. If I had one device not working completely and disconnecting it solved all my problems, then great. Unfortunately, I have a complex system where everything seems to work 50-70% of the time (except for updating those KeypadLincs). So you can't recreate any issues with any reliability to go around and unplug crap and see if anything improves. Again, where are the troubleshooting tools?!?

 

Well, see you next Christmas.

 

Pretty much everyone knows I am one of the most out spoken members about Insteon / Smarthome. But, its safe to say I would not say their products sucks. They may very well bring products to market early, with out sufficient testing or consideration for features etc.

 

But, I can tell you after installing more than 50 plus homes with Insteon. If there is an issue with hardware Smarthome will replace it with out issue with in the two year warranty period. Now, if your home has COM issues it begs to question what kind of COM issues are present?

 

Noise, or signal sucking related issues?

 

I won't pretend to know your environment but would ask you to confirm that all noise and signal suckers are identified and addressed. Phase coupling is essential as you're aware. To be fair Insteon has released a diagnostic key pad that is advertised as being able to help identify COM issues. The Free Houselinc software can be used with any PLM now and the software also has a robust diagnostic feature etc.

 

Perhaps using the ISY-994 with the help of LeeG and others these gremlins can be identified to restore your Insteon network where you may have a higher confidence level in the final product.

 

Teken . . .

[io_guy]

I thought of ditching insteon a number of times but I'm still here. With the addition of dual band i can honestly say my home now operates at about 99.9% reliability. You can't beat their price or features, like instant status updates.

I've added a hard wired filter, 3 filterlincs and a phase coupler. I've also adjusted my wiring to segregate mass signal suckers onto common circuits that don't use insteon.

 

It took some time, but it's a hobby.

If you think insteon sucks, go switch and report back on how great zwave or upb is. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Goose66]

I would never use a PLC system again. If we move next year, I may go Zigbee. I can take my ISY994i with me and just get the Zigbee radio.

 

@Teken Would you mind pointing out the diagnostic keypad? Also does HouseLinc software work with older PLMs? I have a 2312S attached to my ISY994i and a 2414U in the house. If I could use one of those with HouseLinc software, that would be great. Is the 2414U good for anything at this point, or should I just throw it out?

 

@io_guy Can you identify the products that you refer to for hard-wired filter and phase coupler. I have a Smarthome hardwired phase coupler that is supposedly Insteon and X10 compatible but I keep it disconnected because when I switch it in, the comm issues increase, I think having both hardwired phase coupling and AccessPoints across phases is a bad idea -- can someone confirm this?

 

As far as noise vs. signal suckers, I have identified plenty of potential candidates: 4 refrigerators, 7 closets/rooms/garages with FL lighting, 4 UPSes, dozens of surge suppressors supporting 6 TVs and associated equipment, etc. As I mentioned, with the entire system operating at 50-70% reliability, it is impossible to diagnose any one potential problem, because disconnecting any one does not return the network to 99%. If I had a diagnostic tool that would show noise and signal strength, I could have the ISY 994 send out a repeating command, measure the signal strength and noise at a remote location, and see the effect of disconnecting each device (or each circuit at the breaker panel) from the network on these metrics. That is how I use to diagnose X10 issues.

 

Unfortunately I have only one FilterLinc in place because of the aforementioned mechanical problems with FilterLincs and older ACT AF100s. Smarthome suggests I use "short extension cords." I guess that is one way to go - suggesting that the customer pay for more equipment to make up for the deficiencies in the design of their product. Another way to go would be to simply have the manufacturer turn the plug on the bottom around 180 degrees, making their product usable in 98% of the user environments instead of the current 50-70% usability. That's what I would do.

 

BTW, $5000 was probably a bit of hyperbole. I doubt I have more than $2000 in Insteon and the ISY994i.

[Teken]

I would never use a PLC system again. If we move next year, I may go Zigbee. I can take my ISY994i with me and just get the Zigbee radio.

 

@Teken Would you mind pointing out the diagnostic keypad? Also does HouseLinc software work with older PLMs? I have a 2312S attached to my ISY994i and a 2414U in the house. If I could use one of those with HouseLinc software, that would be great. Is the 2414U good for anything at this point, or should I just throw it out?

 

@io_guy Can you identify the products that you refer to for hard-wired filter and phase coupler. I have a Smarthome hardwired phase coupler that is supposedly Insteon and X10 compatible but I keep it disconnected because when I switch it in, the comm issues increase, I think having both hardwired phase coupling and AccessPoints across phases is a bad idea -- can someone confirm this?

 

As far as noise vs. signal suckers, I have identified plenty of potential candidates: 4 refrigerators, 7 closets/rooms/garages with FL lighting, 4 UPSes, dozens of surge suppressors supporting 6 TVs and associated equipment, etc. As I mentioned, with the entire system operating at 50-70% reliability, it is impossible to diagnose any one potential problem, because disconnecting any one does not return the network to 99%. If I had a diagnostic tool that would show noise and signal strength, I could have the ISY 994 send out a repeating command, measure the signal strength and noise at a remote location, and see the effect of disconnecting each device (or each circuit at the breaker panel) from the network on these metrics. That is how I use to diagnose X10 issues.

 

Unfortunately I have only one FilterLinc in place because of the aforementioned mechanical problems with FilterLincs and older ACT AF100s. Smarthome suggests I use "short extension cords." I guess that is one way to go - suggesting that the customer pay for more equipment to make up for the deficiencies in the design of their product. Another way to go would be to simply have the manufacturer turn the plug on the bottom around 180 degrees, making their product usable in 98% of the user environments instead of the current 50-70% usability. That's what I would do.

 

BTW, $5000 was probably a bit of hyperbole. I doubt I have more than $2000 in Insteon and the ISY994i.

 

 

This was the diagnostic keypad it looks like it had a short life span: http://www.smarthome.com/2993-222/INSTE ... pad/p.aspx With respect to the Houselink please refer to this link: http://www.smarthome.com/houselinc.html It appears all of the PLM's you have are not compatible with the Houselink Software.

 

Regarding the phase couplers: I have used both AP units and the older style dryer coupler. Both have worked like a champ since day one. When doing an install I only use the AP units as it allows me to move the device to any outlet to bridge both electrical feeds. This also keeps me out of the electrical panel and also taking up one breaker slot in a service panel.

 

Moving forward the best solution I can offer you is to unplug all of the electrical devices in the home. Once all of the devices are unplugged see if COM issues are rock solid. If so, add one device back in and test, rinse, and repeat. This is one of the best methods to determine and see a *causal effect* of an electronic device on the Insteon network.

 

For larger appliances like the fridge simply kill the breaker and see the results.

 

With out being in your home its very hard to say what it is. In my experience its going to be more than one item that causes an issue, not just one. If practical at all some key *Best Practices*

 

1. Place the PLM as close as possible to the service panel.

 

2. Ensure and confirm phase coupling. I have always deployed AP's in all four corners of the home and on all levels.

 

3. Filter anything like UPS, Computers, PVR's, TV's etc.

 

4. Sometimes it really does take a hard factory reset on an Insteon device to make it work. If in doubt factory reset a switch and see the outcome.

 

5. Battery Operated: If you're like most folks you have more than one battery powered device. Change out the battery on a regular interval and if you have the new remotes make sure you recharge them on a consistent basis.

 

6. If you started this Insteon journey back in 2007-09. Have you considered that there may very well be bad devices in your home? This forum and SH forum will out line which firmware revisions had issues etc. It could very well you do have a few or more junk devices which are giving you headaches.

 

Please report back as many of us would love to help you to get to 100% reliability! For the record, out of the 50 installs I have had seven sites which gave me nothing but grief in getting good COM's. Please ensure you check items like battery chargers, cell chargers, baby monitors, anything that can be plugged in.

 

In one instance I had a site where a cell charge which worked fine for years started to go south. This charger was there when I was doing the install since day one. Five months later I get a call that COM's are down the toilet. Coming on site revealed nothing until I started unplugging things from the owners home.

 

Sometimes things which were fine, just break down.

 

Teken . . .

[LeeG]

"Is the 2414U good for anything at this point, or should I just throw it out?"

 

The old 2414 PLC is not useful in today’s environment. It has a very different interface compared to today’s PLMs and it does not process Extended messages. Makes it impossible to configure or manage links in the newer I2CS devices which require use of Extended messages. Somewhat like the original I1 Insteon devices that do not process Extended messages. The old I1 devices do not use Extended messages but they also do not repeat them. This can make the Insteon network unreliable for Extended messages when the majority of installed inventory are original I1 devices.

[Teken]

Since it looks like Smarthome has dropped selling the diagnostic keypad. Here is an Canadian company that ships to the USA in case you still wish to use this device.

 

Please note some of the features will only work with devices released after March 2012.

 

http://www.aartech.ca/2933-222-insteon- ... eypad.html

 

Teken . . .

[Brian H]

2312S. Is that a typo and you have a 2412S?

 

The real early 2412S PLMs do not work with the free version of Houselinc. Was documented in a thread over on the Smarthome Forums.

 

I searched the devices.xml file and it looks like firmware below 61 was not supported. Vague memory here. I believe they where the old 417 Link Database ones.

[io_guy]

Kingwr,

Filter is a Leviton 6287.

Filterlincs are the standard 2433.

I have 1 wireless AP and the 2406H, no issues.

[apostolakisl]

I have about 60 devices. About 55 of them seem to work about 99+% of the time. Many devices I would guess have never failed to respond. But I have a few that consistently fail to work. This is despite swapping them with other devices. The problem stayed at the location and did not move with the device.

 

I downloaded houselinc, but have not ventured to unplug ISY and plug my computer into the PLM yet to give it a try. How exactly does houselinc help diagnose intermittent problems? The few devices I have that consistently fail still only fail about 25% of the time. But I can't seem to tie the failures into any other activity in the home. These devices that fail are failing to respond to a scene command that many other devices respond to virtually 100% of the time.

 

A great tool would be if I could hook up a device at the location with trouble and have it do a "ping" of sorts and then have a log of when the pings failed. Maybe then I could track it to an appliance or something that turns on/off on its own.

[elvisimprsntr]

Most of the problems I have encountered I was able to resolve by:

 

1. Relocating the PLM

2. Adding a bridge or additional devices to improve wired communication. I don't have many RF devices except for a couple of motion sensors.

3. Put wall transformers on a power strip if located near an Insteon device. The additional inductance of the power strip will attenuate the wall transformer switching frequencies which happen to be near the Insteon frequencies.

 

I've had 100% reliability except for very rare instances (once every two years) where a device stops responding after a brownout. Cycling the breaker takes care of that.

[Teken]

I have about 60 devices. About 55 of them seem to work about 99+% of the time. Many devices I would guess have never failed to respond. But I have a few that consistently fail to work. This is despite swapping them with other devices. The problem stayed at the location and did not move with the device.

 

I downloaded houselinc, but have not ventured to unplug ISY and plug my computer into the PLM yet to give it a try. How exactly does houselinc help diagnose intermittent problems? The few devices I have that consistently fail still only fail about 25% of the time. But I can't seem to tie the failures into any other activity in the home. These devices that fail are failing to respond to a scene command that many other devices respond to virtually 100% of the time.

 

A great tool would be if I could hook up a device at the location with trouble and have it do a "ping" of sorts and then have a log of when the pings failed. Maybe then I could track it to an appliance or something that turns on/off on its own.

 

Both Houselinc and the Diagnostic Keypad will allow you to *ping* the end device(s).

 

Teken . . .

[apostolakisl]

I have about 60 devices. About 55 of them seem to work about 99+% of the time. Many devices I would guess have never failed to respond. But I have a few that consistently fail to work. This is despite swapping them with other devices. The problem stayed at the location and did not move with the device.

 

I downloaded houselinc, but have not ventured to unplug ISY and plug my computer into the PLM yet to give it a try. How exactly does houselinc help diagnose intermittent problems? The few devices I have that consistently fail still only fail about 25% of the time. But I can't seem to tie the failures into any other activity in the home. These devices that fail are failing to respond to a scene command that many other devices respond to virtually 100% of the time.

 

A great tool would be if I could hook up a device at the location with trouble and have it do a "ping" of sorts and then have a log of when the pings failed. Maybe then I could track it to an appliance or something that turns on/off on its own.

 

Both Houselinc and the Diagnostic Keypad will allow you to *ping* the end device(s).

 

Teken . . .

 

 

On a repeating schedule? Like once every 10 seconds for 24 hours and then record the results in a log? If I have to manually do the ping it isn't really going to help me find out what the source of the intermittent problem is. If I could see a pattern to the failures and successes it would go a long way to identifying the source.

[Goose66]

Look at the plug on the new On/Off Module. The plug has been rotated 180 degrees. I guess Smarthome CAN figure it out -- it just takes time. If only the FliterLincs could be made this way...

[bsobel]

Look at the plug on the new On/Off Module. The plug has been rotated 180 degrees. I guess Smarthome CAN figure it out -- it just takes time. If only the FliterLincs could be made this way...

 

You don't like the design, we get it. How about spending some of that energy fixing the actual problems? These should deal with the Filterlinc issue http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/S ... -/28-11104 (I'm sure amazon or others have them as well).

[Goose66]

You don't like the design, we get it. How about spending some of that energy fixing the actual problems?

I get the short extension cord fix (I even said it a few posts up). I take it from your indignation that you work for SmartHome. Perhaps you could spend some of your energy to change the design of the product to make it more usable?

[bsobel]

You don't like the design, we get it. How about spending some of that energy fixing the actual problems?

I get the short extension cord fix (I even said it a few posts up). I take it from your indignation that you work for SmartHome. Perhaps you could spend some of your energy to change the design of the product to make it more usable?

 

Nope don't work for them, just a customer. I've had my own set of Insteon challenges but I've found SH pretty easy to work with (I was one of the first people literally on Insteon on 06 and they've swapped out just about every module by now) and UDI fantastic to work with. I'm just saying for the frustration you are showing there are things more productive than complaining you could be doing and you have a whole group of folks (myself included) rooting for you to figure out the issues (and willing to help) So why not take advantage of that?

 

Bill

[IndyMike]

@io_guy Can you identify the products that you refer to for hard-wired filter and phase coupler. I have a Smarthome hardwired phase coupler that is supposedly Insteon and X10 compatible but I keep it disconnected because when I switch it in, the comm issues increase, I think having both hardwired phase coupling and AccessPoints across phases is a bad idea -- can someone confirm this?

 

As the others have posted, I have never had issues using a hardwired coupler (Smarthome or ACT) with Insteon.

 

If your communication degrades with the coupler in place it is trying to tell you something:

1) You have noise on the opposite phase that is being coupled back to the PLM

2) You have high loading (either phase) and adding the coupler presents additional loads that drag the signal/noise ratio down further.

 

If you had a 2413S (dual band) PLM I would suggest putting this behind a filter to force it to use RF (as a test only). That's not an option with your 2412S.

 

I have all of the devices that you've listed except the UPS(s) and I have one filter installed (surge strip at the PLM). If you can't filter the UPS(s), can you at least disconnect them for a test?

[Teken]

I know this isn't a normal ask. But it would benefit you a great deal to upgrade your PLM to the latest dual band release.

 

As Indimike suggested this would help a great deal in trouble shooting and long term performance.

 

Teken . . .

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[Goose66]

I think I need to suck it up and do that (upgrade the PLM). I need to try the hardwire phase coupler without the Access Points, too. Once I have the dual-band PLM. I shouldn't need the Access Points. Alternatively, is there some way to factory reset the Access Points so that they are not bridging phases but just bridging RF with PLC?

[LeeG]

Access Points have no configuration. Plug them in and they couple if in range of each other and on opposite 120v legs.

[Teken]

I think I need to suck it up and do that (upgrade the PLM). I need to try the hardwire phase coupler without the Access Points, too. Once I have the dual-band PLM. I shouldn't need the Access Points. Alternatively, is there some way to factory reset the Access Points so that they are not bridging phases but just bridging RF with PLC?

 

I would highly suggest that you redeploy them in the home. There is no negative with having them plugged in. It will assure that all area's, zones, floors, rooms are coupled and in range of a RF repeater.

 

The only obvious negatives is that the device does not serve a secondary purpose. It can not be used to turn something on / off / dim a load, all it does it bridge the two electrical feeds and repeats the signal.

 

It would be great to know if you have started the trouble shooting process. Large installs and COM issues are always interesting to me as it helps me down the road for trouble shooting future client installs.

 

Teken . . .

[Brian H]

Hard wired couplers have limitations.

They couple both Insteon power line signals and noise from one phase to the other.

Also if the signal is marginal from the Insteon sender. It can only couple what it sees to the other phase.

Access Points allow you to place them where signals need some help. Something a hard wired coupler in the breaker box can't do.

I would also say keep the Access Points in the mix. Using the four button tap test to verify coupling to both phases and they can talk to each other.

[oronomus]

Brian H, if you don't mind, would you kindly repeat a best practices step-by-step for conducting the 4 tap test with PLM and AP's. I know it has been repreated here before, but always good to review specific best practices from those in the know. Thank you...