Is this a communications problem?

[greensha]

I've had my Insteon system for about 7 years and it has performed pretty well. Scenes have been activated with about 95-99% reliability (meaning, when I pressed a switch on an Insteon device, the scene triggered appropriately. About a year ago, I replaced one of my SwitchLinc dimmers with a Keypadlinc to get better control over my scenes. The reliability decreased to between 30-50% for scenes triggered with the Keypadlinc (I'll call this KP1), even more so over the last couple of weeks. A few months ago, my trusty ControlLinc died (that worked with close to 100% reliability) so I replaced it with KeyPadLinc (I'll call this KP2) in a tabletop enclosure. That works about 10% of the time.

 

About two weeks ago, everything seemed to go belly up. I've got a series of scenes that activate in the evening and progressively dim the house lights as it gets later. The lights always came on at the same time, but the subsequent scenes didn't work (I'm pretty sure they fired, as they are based on the time of day and not activated by a switch). This situation seems to have resolved in the last few days, although I'm not sure why.

 

Using the Admin Console to try and diagnose the problem, I see that KP1 always has the 1011 symbol next to it as though an update was being written. No matter what I do, I cannot get this to go away. I can send commands to the device, I they seem to work with 100% reliability.

 

I used the Event Viewer to try and figure out if I could see the problem, but to be honest I'm having a hard time interpreting the output. Some of it seems straight forward, other parts not so much.

 

Here is the log when I just left the Event Viewer running with out pressing any buttons (the device that is firing is a motion detector - 14.DC.01):

Sun 03/23/2014 10:12:01 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:12:01 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:12:02 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:12:02 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:16:55 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:16:55 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:17:28 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:17:28 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:17:48 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:17:48 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:18:18 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:18:18 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:23:18 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:23:18 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 00.00.01 C3 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [ 14 DC 1 1] DON 1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 11.00.01 C7 06 00 (00)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->11.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:12 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:14 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:30:14 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:33:19 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:33:19 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:33:20 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:33:20 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:29 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:29 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:29 AM : [ 14 DC 1 1] DON 1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:30 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 7F 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:30 AM : [ X10] I/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:41 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:41 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:41 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:34:41 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [ 14 DC 1 1] DON 1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 11.00.01 C7 06 00 (00)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->11.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:35:42 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:38:01 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:38:01 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:40:00 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:40:00 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:40:00 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:40:00 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:44:59 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:44:59 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:45:00 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:45:00 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:53:31 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:53:31 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:53:31 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:53:31 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:58:31 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 10:58:31 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:58:31 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.DC.01 13.00.01 C3 06 00 (00)

Sun 03/23/2014 10:58:31 AM : [std-Group ] 14.DC.01-->13.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

Sun 03/23/2014 10:58:31 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 03/23/2014 11:08:30 AM : [ Time] 11:08:31 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:18:30 AM : [ Time] 11:18:31 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:18:34 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 11:18:34 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:28:34 AM : [ Time] 11:28:35 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:38:35 AM : [ Time] 11:38:35 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:43:37 AM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 11:43:37 AM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 11:53:37 AM : [ Time] 11:53:36 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 12:03:37 PM : [ Time] 12:03:37 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 12:13:37 PM : [ Time] 12:13:37 11(0)

Sun 03/23/2014 12:21:48 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 12:21:48 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

 

When I press the Off Button for KP2 I get this:

Sun 03/23/2014 12:52:28 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 12:52:28 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

 

When I press the Off Button for KP1 sometimes get the same result as KP2 and sometime I get a good command that triggers the scene.

 

So, I think I am suffering from a communication problem but I don't know the cause. The button presses always seem to at least generate the X10 message. I have no X10 devices though. Outbound communication from the ISY and PLM seem to be ok, but commands from the KPL's seems to be poor. Any ideas about how to track down the source of the problem?

 

Thanks!

 

Andy

[oberkc]

My suspicion is that you have a combination of issues, icluding comm problems. First, however, I would attempt to tackle the x10 issue. Since you have no x-10 devices, I assume that you either have an insteon device with an address assigned, or a program somewhere sending out commands. If you see a relationship between events and x10 commands that would suggest a potential device, I think I would factory restore the devices in an attempt to clear any x10 addresses.

[Brian H]

Do things get better if you remove the battery from the Motion Sensor?

You may want to try pulling the Air Gap Switch on individual modules and see if things get better.

Just don't push the Air Gap Switch past its normal position when repowering the module or you will factory reset it.

If by chance you have some real old SwitchLinc Relays. They didn't have a Air gap Switch.

 

Do you know the firmware version in the KPLs? I remember posts here mentioning some firmware version where causing communications problems.

[oberkc]

I remember posts here mentioning some firmware version where causing communications problems.

 

I recall those trouble devices being switchlincs, but I forget the version. I may be remembering incorrectly.

[Brian H]

You are probably correct as my memory is real fuzzy on that point.

[greensha]

I don't think that the motion detector is the problem as the only reason that fired is because I walked through the house while I was generating the log. If I don't walk through the house, the motion detector doesn't show up in the log.

 

I tried a factory reset on the KPL. It then failed to connect to the ISY at all. I was not able to link it using either the set button or manual address entry. I thought that this KPL might be the cause of the problems. I replaced the KPL with a SwitchLinc dimmer (2476D) but had the same problems with that device too. I have two other switchlincs in the same box that work just fine. I've recycled the power on both the ISY-994 and the PLM.

 

Here is the log from my attempt to link manually to the SwitchLinc. I don't really know how to interpret the codes (is there a page somewhere with that info, I googled the codes but that didn't show anything useful).

 

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:24 PM : [19 D9 5E ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:24 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 19 D9 5E 0F 0D 00

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:24 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.D9.5E 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:28 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D9.5E 0C.A6.72 AB 0D FF (FF)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:28 PM : [std-Direct Nack] 19.D9.5E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:28 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 19 D9 5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:28 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.D9.5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 06 LNK-ON (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:30 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:30 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:39 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 19 D9 5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:39 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.D9.5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 06 LNK-ON (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:48 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 19 D9 5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:48 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 19.D9.5E 1F 09 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 F6 06 LNK-ON (01)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:55 PM : [19 D9 5E 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:55 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

I'm at a loss to figure out what is going on here. I have relied quite a bit on the Insteon and ISY system to control my lights and if I can't get this sorted out I'm dreading going back to old fashioned manual lighting!

 

Thanks!

 

Andy

[oberkc]

Did you perform a factory reset on the switchlinc before attempting to add it to the ISY? I am still curious about those X-10 commands.

 

I don't know of anywhere there is a code dictionary. Sorry.

 

When one tries to add a device to the ISY, but can't, I tend to think comm problems first. What version is your ISY? How old is the switchlinc and keypad? It could be a device failure, obviously. Best way I know to test for this is to temporarily wire to an extension cord and plug in right next to the ISY/PLM. If that works, then this tends to eliminate the device failure option.

 

Speaking of PLM, what other devices do you have plugged into the same outlet or circuit? What means do you employ to communicate across the legs of your electrical system? Access points? Do you use any filters in your house?

[greensha]

Did you perform a factory reset on the switchlinc before attempting to add it to the ISY? I am still curious about those X-10 commands.

 

Yes, I performed a reset on both the KPL and switchlinc.

 

 

When one tries to add a device to the ISY, but can't, I tend to think comm problems first. What version is your ISY? How old is the switchlinc and keypad? It could be a device failure, obviously. Best way I know to test for this is to temporarily wire to an extension cord and plug in right next to the ISY/PLM. If that works, then this tends to eliminate the device failure option.

 

The ISY is a 994i running 4.0.5. The Keypad and switchlinc are about a year old. The switchlinc has been in the box since I bought it. The strange thing is that when I manually try to add the switchlinc, the isy is able to put it into linking mode (the light on switchlinc starts to flash). The problem seems to be more of the insteon devices communicating back to the isy than the other way around.

 

 

Speaking of PLM, what other devices do you have plugged into the same outlet or circuit? What means do you employ to communicate across the legs of your electrical system? Access points? Do you use any filters in your house?

 

The PLM is in my comms closet, so there is a UPS with routers, T1 box and switches. The PLM has an access point piggy backed and is plugged directly into the outlet. It's been this way for years with no problems. I have 4 access points and 4 lamplincs (dual band). If it's a phase problem, then wouldn't you expect to see more inconsistent behaviour?

 

Thanks!

[Brian H]

Have you added anything new to the house around the time the problems started?

Like a new electronic device that maybe making power line noise or absorbing power line signals?

Move any existing device to a new location?

[greensha]

Have you added anything new to the house around the time the problems started?

Like a new electronic device that maybe making power line noise or absorbing power line signals?

Move any existing device to a new location?

 

Not that I can think of. I've been racking my brains to think if I've changed anything, but I'm drawing a blank.

[Brian H]

Power company didn't give you a nice shiny new Smart Meter did they?

[LeeG]

This is not a real X10 message. X10 messages are in two parts. This is a solid stream of noise coming from the powerline. If no other tools are available (such as good X10 signal analyzer) turn Off all the breakers except the one powering the ISY/PLM and the circuit containing the new device. Add the new device to the ISY with event viewer at LEVEL 3 and post trace if device does not add.

 

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

[greensha]

Power company didn't give you a nice shiny new Smart Meter did they?

 

I'm pretty sure they haven't.

[greensha]

This is not a real X10 message. X10 messages are in two parts. This is a solid stream of noise coming from the powerline. If no other tools are available (such as good X10 signal analyzer) turn Off all the breakers except the one powering the ISY/PLM and the circuit containing the new device. Add the new device to the ISY with event viewer at LEVEL 3 and post trace if device does not add.

 

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 FF 80

Sun 03/23/2014 04:58:51 PM : [ X10] J/Status Request (10)

 

I think that is what I am going to have to do. Unfortunately the GF is watching TV so I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow night. I will post updates.

 

Thanks for the help!

[oberkc]

The PLM is in my comms closet, so there is a UPS with routers, T1 box and switches. The PLM has an access point piggy backed and is plugged directly into the outlet. It's been this way for years with no problems.

 

Boy....that sure jumps out at me. Perhaps you have had marginal comms for a long time and something minor has pushed it over the top. There is no question in my mind that I would filter the UPS and anything else on the same circuit.

 

Out of curiosity, I would also be temporarily running an extension cord from another outlet and circuit, plugging into it the PLM. If that solves your problems (or at least some of them), that is a good indication of the need for a filter.

[Brian H]

My mention of a Smart Meter was at best a long shot.

I have seen one brand of Smart Meter's over 50 volt concentrator data signals causing all kinds of grief with X10.

Since the noise seems to be causing the PLM to see what it thinks is a J Status Request. I mentioned it.

[Xathros]

I remember posts here mentioning some firmware version where causing communications problems.

 

I recall those trouble devices being switchlincs, but I forget the version. I may be remembering incorrectly.

 

Switchlinc v.35

 

-Xathros

[greensha]

I placed the PLM on a different circuit this evening and all the problems seem to have resolved. oberkc was correct, thanks! I'm going to order a few filters and place them on the UPS's I have to hopefully stave off any future problems. Has anyone filtered the power supply before it enters the breaker panel, and if so what did you use and was it effective?

 

Many thanks for all the help,

 

Andy