devices turn on or off unexpectedly

[cwagner2401]

Every now and then, devices turn on or off unexpectedly. It's done it for four years now. It did it with the ISY99 and now with the 994. It did it with the 2412S PLM and now with the 2413S. Last night, the outletLinc controlling my projector, the IO/Linc controlling my garage door and an applianceLinc all turned off simultaneously. The issue is never switchlinc related. It's always outletlinc, appliancelinc and io/linc. The ISY log never shows any corresponding commands. Another interesting observation is that this seems to only happen between the hours of midnight and 5AM.

 

Anyone have an idea of what's going on and how to resolve it?

 

Thank you,

[larryllix]

First clue I would look for would be unwanted links in your devices causing them to listen to events you are not aware of.

 

Right click on the device, scroll down to "Diagnostics", and then select "Show device links table".

 

Leave this on your screen and do this again for the ISY

Right click on the device, scroll down to "Diagnostics", and then select "Show ISY links table". It should land on top of the device information so move it beside it for line by line comparison.

 

Compare the two to see if there are any links installed that ISY doesn't know about.

[cwagner2401]

thank you larryIIix. I'll look at that tonight and post back.

[cwagner2401]

I looked at the links tables. Each of the devices show a set of links duplicated 2 or 3 times. The ISY shows no duplicates. Is this an issue?

 

Thanks again.

[Brian H]

Where the modules manually linked to each other before you used the Administrative Console or only through the Administrative Console?

[cwagner2401]

Only thru the ISY. I've never done manual linking.

[LeeG]

Post the Show Device Links Table results.

[cwagner2401]

I just went back and re-ran the tables. Now it's not showing the duplicated entries.

[cwagner2401]

I have new information. It just happened again. This time at about 9:15 PM, so the earlier observation I made of midnight to 5 AM being the hours of occurrence isn't true.

 

With this most recent occurrence, all lights that were on went off. One of 3 garage doors opened (the same one as the last time). There was nothing in the log and when I look at "My Lighting" the list of devices and status shows that the ISY thinks the devices are still on.

 

As I've said in an earlier post, this has happened in the past. But very infrequently. Now it's happening too often. I can't have the system opening doors randomly.

 

One difference - I recently upgraded from 4.0.5 to 4.2.2 to fix the UPNP issue.

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[larryllix]

ApplianceLinc and OutletLinc devices support X-10 commands. AFAICT IoLinc devices do not support X-10 so there may be a hole in this hypothesis. Also I am not sure if the X-10 support in these Insteon devices supports the X-10 "All ON"/"All Off" commands.

 

Dark times could be a frequent usage times for X-10 systems to send All On/All Off commands especially if a neighbour had only a few lights that get affected, so that fits the scenario. This is all assuming you didn't factory reset each unit upon initial installation after purchase or somehow X-10 addresses crept into the devices during setup times of vulnerability.

 

If you could get you hands on a an old X-10 table top keypad that can generate any HouseCode it may be worth a try to interfere with your system as a test.

Edit: Seems people want a lot for these old relics. Here is one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSR-System-X10-MC260-The-Controller-X10-Module-Home-Automation-Powerhouse-Mini-/201087745329?pt=Home_Automation_Controls_Touchscreens&hash=item2ed1c37d31

 

I couldn't find any location on your profile. Perhaps someone could loan you an X-10 controller if you are close by.

 

I am not sure if Insteon has any support for "All Devices" commands that could be issued from a dying device or misinterpreted noise interference. There are a few here that are more familiar with the Insteon protocols than me.

[cwagner2401]

Hmmm. Interesting theory. I have a cabin in the woods about 100 miles away. I use X-10 there. Next time I go, I'll bring the controller back with me. In the mean time, do you know any of any way that I can tell if the X-10 is enabled on devices?

 

Thanks for your reply.

[larryllix]

Hmmm. Interesting theory. I have a cabin in the woods about 100 miles away. I use X-10 there. Next time I go, I'll bring the controller back with me. In the mean time, do you know any of any way that I can tell if the X-10 is enabled on devices?

 

Thanks for your reply.

hmmm... I don't think there is a way to tell. Somebody recently stated here a factory reset removes all traces of X-10. This would make a long process, but perhaps shorter for ISY with it's install links into devices. It may be worth it to factory reset specific devices, say garage doors? and perhaps one outlet so you could be assured it was successful when the non-factory reset devices indicate the event happened in the future. Otherwise you would never know and always wonder.

 

Edit: A sudden last thought would be an X-10 chime installed on X-10 Code A1, the typical factory setting, but you would have to be there and able to hear it.

[Brian H]

The 2450 I/OLInc can have an X10 address added to its relay and sensor.

Both my old v1.0 and I2CS Developers v1.8 with FW 41. Will turn Off the 2450 I/OLinc's relay with an X10 All Units Off to its House Code.

Can't say about the latest firmware on the off chance it has changed X10 actions.

 

No there is no way to tell if an X10 address is in the module. Other then sending an X10 command to its programmed address.

Turning the module On and then using the X10 All Units Off command may turn it off if it was On.

 

A Factory Reset would remove any X10 addresses.

 

Many experienced Insteon users. Do a Factory Reset on all new modules before use. As test addresses have been shipped in some modules from the factory.

[cwagner2401]

Thanks again. I really appreciate you sharing your thought energy.

 

I'm anxious to get my X-10 controller and try this. It certainly sounds like this could be a root cause. I guess I'm a little disappointed that the ISY/PLM can't report seeing X-10 commands on the line. And BOY do I wish there were such a thing as an Insteon sniffer!

 

I'll post back results.

[Xathros]

You can send X10 commands from the ISY via program command. Easy enough to build a program that sends an all off for each house code and run it to see if there is any effect.

 

-Xathros

[Brian H]

In Tools, Log, save as text. It should show any X10 commands it saw on the power lines in the saved text file.

[cwagner2401]

Thanks for the advice. I'll get digging on that.

[larryllix]

You can send X10 commands from the ISY via program command. Easy enough to build a program that sends an all off for each house code and run it to see if there is any effect.

 

-Xathros

Perfect!....doh!

 

Let us know before we all book flights to come and see!

[Brian H]

Just make sure you add a small delay between each House Codes All Units Off command.

If there is no delay. The X10 commands may get stepped on especially if you have a X10 Repeater/Coupler.

I have not seen any X10 addresses in an Insteon Module respond to the All Lights On command. Just All Units Off. The rerely used All Lights Off also doesn't seem to work. Even on many X10 modules.

[cwagner2401]

I checked the log in text. No X-10 events at the time of the spurious events.

 

I wrote a program to cycle thru House codes A-P sending All Units Off with 2 sec delay between each transmission. I added Insteon commands to turn a light on at the beginning of the program and off at the end so that I would be sure the program ran. I ran it 4 times. I couldn't duplicate the problem.

 

Any other ideas?...

 

Thanks.

[cwagner2401]

My thought is that I need to see if there is any power line communications or noise just prior to the events. So here's my plan of action:

 

First a recap of the issue:

1) there are three garage doors connected to IOlinc modules. One door randomly opens with no corresponding log entry. It's always the same garage door.

2) at the same time, the following shut off with no corresponding log entry and the ISY shows them as still on (there may be others but, no others have been on at the time of the events).

a) two appliance linc modules

one outletlinc

c) one in-linelinc relay

 

Now my plan:

1) I built a filtering circuit for my oscilloscope so that I can see the modulated power line carrier overlaid on the 60hz wave. I will place the scope in the garage.

2) I ordered a "dashboard camera" form eBay. Full-HD-1080P-G1W-2-7-LCD-Car-DVR-Camera-Recorder-G-sensor-H-264-Night-Vision (will have it within 12 days).

a) I will set the camera over the oscilloscope; recording audio and video in a 5 minute loop.

I will install an appliancelinc module on the dash cam.

i) my ELK M1G will sense the door opening and shut the appliancelinc off

ii) the battery in the dash cam will allow it to gracefully shut down and terminate recording when power is lost

 

When the event occurs, the camera should have captured the audio and video from the time of the event and backwards 5 mins. I will review the video and should see if there is PLC traffic or noise just prior to hearing the door open.

 

I fully expect to see traffic or noise. How else could these four devices randomly go off at the same time? So what does this prove?... X-10 traffic, Insteon traffic and noise all look different on the scope. So I'll be able to know what signal is causing the issue and focus on that troubleshooting trail.

 

I'll post back. in the meantime, any and all feedback is very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[ELA]

cwagner2401,

I applaud your efforts at diagnosing your issue. Insteon can become quite a time hog when you encounter issues such as you have.

 

Having observed countless hours of Insteon signals as well as various noise sources I would ask what time/div & volts/div settings will you use on your scope? Is your scope a digital/storage scope?

 

The headache with "watching" for noise vs. valid signals is in the setup of the scope and knowing what is significant vs. what is not. Since Insteon can respond to a signal as small as 10-100mv you need to set it that sensitive in order to capture low level signals from a possible distant source. At that level the signal is likely buried in the noise floor.

All the other high amplitude signals saturate the display.

 

If you have any dimmers in operation you will see constant high amplitude "noise" from them.

 

If the time/div is not set appropriately you may not be able to tell the difference between noise and a valid signal.

If you do not have storage on the scope you will need to strain to see signals that pass by very fast.

 

If you do capture a valid Insteon signal at the time of the event then what have you accomplished? Where did it originate?

Did noise corrupt a distant device that then sent an Insteon signal?

Suppose you do capture a signal. How would one determine where it came from? You may end up having to perform multiple captures from different locations looking for the highest amplitude ( originator location).

 

Not to discourage you from trying and as I said I applaud your efforts at understanding why this is happening.

Just pointing out some issues to think about in case you have not already based on my having spent way too many hours on Insteon communications issues.

Having a scope as a diagnostic tool big is a plus but may not lead to a resolution.

 

It is always very difficult to track down an intermittent problem unless you can recreate it at will.

I wish you the best of luck that you can track down this difficult issue.

I will watch with interest in hopes that you can sort it out. At the moment I do not have any real helpful insights but I will give it some further thought.

[cwagner2401]

ELA - Thank you very much. I can use as much thought and reason as possible.

 

I'm aware of your concerns... To view the signal, I used a choke, capacitor and some resistors - improves my view of the signal. It works very well. Takes out everything under 116Khz and brings the amplitude down.

 

The best I can hope for (and it's a long shot) is that I can see some X-10 signal just before the door opens - there are X-10 analyzers. If I see X-10, I can justify buying one to see what it is. if it's not X-10, I think the scope is a dead-end.

 

I think it's a shame that Insteon hasn't released a sniffer. It's maddening.

 

I have 54 devices and I really want to avoid factory resets on those and the PLM.

 

I do have an old ISY99i and a 2412PLM. I haven't though it through but, I wonder if I can use those as a sniffer. I don't know if the events viewer will work if the PLM isn't in the device tables. Any thoughts?

[Brian H]

The 2412S PLM can also be run standalone. Through a serial port on your computer. The serial cable should be in the PLMs box but since it is well hidden in the packing. Many have discarded it without knowing they did.

It can be put into the Monitor Mode where it will see all Insteon messages for a device in its link database not just ones sent to it.

It would output any X10 messages it received.

There is information here on the PLM basics including the older Developers Guide.

http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/insteon.html

 

You would need a program that can input and output in HEX.

The Developer Group uses the DockLight Evaluation version for all of its information they give us examples of.

http://www.docklight.de/

BusyRats PLM test program if you can find it also works.

[cwagner2401]

Thanks Brian. I'll start researching those links.

 

I did lose that cable but, I'm sure I can find a pin-out somewhere.

 

Thanks again.