stillen_i30 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Just wondering if anyone has any experience with some of the new LED bulbs coming out lately. I've begun slowly converting to LED. I've noticed that many of the KPLs I have (2486D KPL v.35) are older and have issues when LEDs are running on their circuit. One switch I have is a 5-way and one of these KPLs keeps flashing/clicking and the LEDs on the KPL go dim when the load is on (but it is not even the load-bearing switch). Another KPL of the same version on the same circuit (again, not load bearing) does not do this but I'm wondering why this happens? I cannot control the load when the lights are on but once the lights are off then the KPL will work. Anyone else have experience with LED bulbs and insteon devices? Link to comment
larryllix Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 I use many different brands of LED bulbs and have experienced no problems with them so far. I do find most of them will not illuminate below about 12-18% and their brightness curve is quite different. Between about 40% and 100% the brightness does not change that much as an incandescent would. Most of the dimming curve is at the bottom of the curve. I prefer the LED colour when dimed as it doesn't yellow. I try to avoid the 2700K colour. Who ever wanted a bulb that yellow anyway? 3000k-4100K is a much better colour for general soft usage. I use them on LampLinc plug-ins and SwitchLinc dimmers without any problems I have found. However, I have some bedroom lamps with a half brightness switch using a half wave rectifier in the base, and the LEDs flicker some in them and even worse when dimmed on Insteon Plug-in dimmers. I just avoid the built in half brightness setting on the lamp switch. I have experienced slight problems controlling them when my when my co-gen inverter is running and they are behind arc-fault detector breakers in the panel. I depend on the X10 MS units to turn it off occasionally as it is inside the same electrical circuit behind the Arc Fault breakers. Link to comment
Brian H Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Not all LED Bulbs are made for use on dimmers. If you are using one not rated to be on a dimmer. That could be contributing to your problem. Link to comment
MWareman Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Sounds like you might be using the KPLs without a ground wire. They won't work with very low current devices, like LED bulbs, because the voltage drop is insufficient to power the KPL. Link to comment
Xathros Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Sounds like you might be using the KPLs without a ground wire. They won't work with very low current devices, like LED bulbs, because the voltage drop is insufficient to power the KPL. I don't believe that any of the KPL's require a current through the load as all of them have a neutral wire unlike the 2 wire Switchlinc dimmers. The KPL is powered from line to neutral regardless of whether or not there is a load attached. There should be NO current passing through the ground wire! The KPL should operate just fine without the ground connected however this is against code for safety reasons. -Xathros Link to comment
Brian H Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Ground wires are not needed for Insteon Modules to work. In my old house there is no ground wire in the two wire Romex. Insteon Switches work fine with no grounds. Safety is a different but important difference. Link to comment
MWareman Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Sorry, I meant to say neutral, not ground. Oops... Also, hadn't realized that there were not any KPLs without a neutral either. Link to comment
stillen_i30 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 Thanks for the replies. The KPL whose LEDs go dim when the load in question is on (four Phillips BR30 LED floods 10.5 = 65w, all rated for dimming) is wired to code with ground and is not the two-wire model. I have another similar KPL acting similarly in lit stairwell once six A19 Phillips LED dimmable 9watt bulbs were installed, but that one only flickered a few times after first installed and still works when the load is on. The display on the KPL no longer flickers/clicks. The KPL in question above does not respond at all when the load is on, only response when load is off (and LEDs light back up again when load is off) and clicks/flickers continuously. Also, I noticed today a buzzing noise coming from my subwoofer that is plugged into likely the same circuit the LED floods are on...very weird and not happy! Link to comment
Brian H Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 It is possible that even though the LED bulbs are rated to be dimmed. They may not play well with the KPLs electronics. In some tests I have combined different LED bulbs with an assortment of dimmer modules and some combinations where not ideal. There is also another rarely mentioned trait of dimmable LED bulbs. Repetitive peak and inrush currents. The brief large repetitive current spikes can cause problems. Many manufacturers will give you an equivalent number. Like I have seen a Lighting Science LED bulb that used 10 watts. Was to be counted as a 80 watt incandescent load when doing the load calculations on a dimmer. If you have the Philips model number. You maybe able to find a specifications sheet or a tested dimmer model number chart. That would give you the number of bulbs that could be used on a dimmer. I have seen almost no automation dimmers tested but you may still get a rough idea of the incandescent equivalent your bulb is rated for. Link to comment
intellihome Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I bought my first Dimmable LED bulb awhile back (sorry can't recall the brand, model). I really like the soft start and fade on incandescent bulbs. I am stocking up on these bulbs because the electricity savings is not great enough to me me to lose this capability on some of my fixtures. I tried to ramp up the LED bulb via a lamplinc and using the ISY as a controller (setting percentages). The bulb responded horribly. It took 55% to get the bulb to turn on. The bulb was pretty much full output at this point. Playing around with set points between 55% and 100% yielded inconsistent results. Slight changes in LED output or none at all. I'll find the LED bulb and retest to give a more helpful response. Link to comment
Techman Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Hello Intellihome, After trying numerous led bulbs I found the CREE A19 led bulbs, which are sold at Home Depot stores and online, to work very well with the Insteon products. I'm able to dim them all the way down and up without any flicker or noise. They're currently available in 40w, 60w, and 100w equivalent. They come in both 2700k (soft white) and 5000k (bright white) color temperatures. The 2700k is most comparable to the color temperature of an incandescent bulb. Link to comment
stillen_i30 Posted May 28, 2014 Author Share Posted May 28, 2014 After further testing, if I dim the load that causes the KPL to click and have the backlights dim all the way to off (and all buttons become non functional). If I have the load on at full brightness, the KPL clicks again and all the backlights turn on (whichever scenes are active) and the KPL becomes functional again. With the 20% off at smarthome this week, anyone think its worth buying a newer KPL (are the newer ones more tolerable of dimming CFL and LED loads, or has that aspect not changed since my original version KPL?) Link to comment
Techman Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'm using 8 button KPL dimmers v.41 and .43 and have had no issues with the CREE Led bulbs. Not sure if there were issues with the older KPLs. The CFL's can be somewhat problematic. I've also had issues with the Philips bulbs and no longer use them. It might be worth it to pick up one of the later KPL's on sale and see if that solves your problems, if it doesn't you'll probably need to try a different bulb. Link to comment
blueman2 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 After further testing, if I dim the load that causes the KPL to click and have the backlights dim all the way to off (and all buttons become non functional). If I have the load on at full brightness, the KPL clicks again and all the backlights turn on (whichever scenes are active) and the KPL becomes functional again. With the 20% off at smarthome this week, anyone think its worth buying a newer KPL (are the newer ones more tolerable of dimming CFL and LED loads, or has that aspect not changed since my original version KPL?) Yes, I have this exact same issue, but not just with LED. Also with CFL. Both are dimmable versions, BTW. I found the issue was related to an old/faulty KPL. I replaced it with a newer version, and it works fine. I had to do that with 2 KPLs. Both of the 'bad' KPLs were VERY old, bought probably 2 years ago. (V35). I trashed them. Link to comment
stillen_i30 Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Got a new KPL to replace the old one and it is now not clicking and dysfunctional anymore like the old one. Moved the old one to another location where two CFLs were in the sockets, and even when off, was causing problems with the KPL. So I unscrewed the bulbs and now the KPL seems to be settling down. I have a bunch of BR30 LED floods (good brand, Phillips) on the kitchen light circuit. When dimmed, the KPL creates significant line noise that is picked up by my velodyne subwoofer nearby (but on a different circuit). I replaced this KPL with the newest available also but the problem still persists. Now I have an extra KPL!. Anyway, I also purchased a line filter so we'll see if that helps to quiet the line noise (it's huge though...hopefully I can get it to fit into my breaker panel) Link to comment
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