Another ALL ON Event

[stusviews]

None of the devices added to my 99i Pro (powered by a 2412S) turned on when the all On event occurred. That indicates that it's not a generic on (or fast on) that's being issued.

[Teken]

None of the devices added to my 99i Pro (powered by a 2412S) turned on when the all On event occurred. That indicates that it's not a generic on (or fast on) that's being issued.

To be clear the 99 is still separate and only controlling the gate and other outside security elements. Where as you have a 994 actually controlling the homes lighting which is being impacted by this issue which is using a 2413S PLM?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

There are five Micro On/Off modules also being controlled by the 99 (holiday lighting). None turned on.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi stusviews,

 

If you know the time it happened, can you please go to the logs and check whether or not any ISY programs had been activated at or around the same time?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[stusviews]

Michel,

 

Nothing in the log appeared unusual. The closest entry was a scene nearly a minute earlier.

 

Stu

 

Edit: This program ran almost 1 ½ min prior to the all on event

 

If
        Status  'CR / Devices / CR Ceiling Light 80' is not Off
     Or Status  'KT / Devices / KT Ceiling 50' is not Off
     Or Status  'LR / Devices / LR Ceiling Light KPL 20' is not Off
 
Then
        Set Scene 'DR / Scenes / DR Front Off Button' On
 
Else
        Set Scene 'DR / Scenes / DR Front Off Button' Off
 
 

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi stusviews,

 

Thank you.

 

I don't think your program is the culprit. It's just too far back in time.

 

Do you have ELK?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[stusviews]

Hi Michel,

 

I also disregarded the program as the trigger. I'm looking for something that occurs within seconds--or less--of the All On. I thought I found it with the misbehaving Micro Module--until now.

 

No, I don't have ELK. I do have a network module, but all the resources depend on programs and those run around sunset and after midnight. The All On occurred about 8:20 PM.

 

Stu

[Techman]

Stusviews,

 

Do you have a forced air furnace or a clothes dryer with electronic ignition or any motors that may have come on at 8:20?

Is the ISY plugged into a UPS?

[stusviews]

No, to all that you mentioned. I do welcome all possibilities.

[Teken]

No, to all that you mentioned. I do welcome all possibilities.

 

Change out the power supply feeding the ISY and report back. I am also curious about one of your last replies where you indicate this isn't a normal On, Fast On??

 

For the edification of others there are how many possible activation methods?

 

On, Fast On, ALL ON, Direct command, X10, Extended Messages?? If there are more methods I am unaware of please do share them.

 

I would challenge anyone who is seeing this persistent issue assuming they care to do this. There are several things that could help reduce the amount of guess work at play here. This would of course require a lot of work assuming a large and complex system but for those worried about this issue I see no other method to know for sure.

 

1. Hard reset all devices in the home and restore the devices and wait and see.

 

2. Hard reset all devices and add them back in brand new into the ISY with out any programs / scenes.

 

If anyone goes down this path especially option 2 and they still see a ALL ON event I am pretty sure the root cause is being narrowed down quite a bit.

[Jimbo.Automates]

I experienced my first all on event tonight which seemed to be caused when by a motion sensor on control which runs a program to turn on a light connected to the load of a KPL. There is also another program triggered to turn on another scene which has other kpl buttons as controllers, and most lights as responders and I have a 2 second delay before turning that scene on. Based on discussions earlier in this thread it sounds like that should be okay? I used to have delays in programs that were triggered by motion events because I thought that was a source of problems previously, but when I replaced my PLM with the new one that is a 2413S Rev 2.0 with firmware v9E I thought the possibility of an all on was gone so I removed the delays, but that was over a month ago.

 

This is with a 994i/IR Pro, and I do not have an ELK or a forced air furnace, and our dryer has electronic ignition, but was not running at the time, and the ISY is not plugged into a UPS. I think that answers all the questions from previous posts.

 

I didn't have an event viewer running, but have the log if that helps to debug it I can post it, and I will send it to support... Needless to say, it freaked out my wife for everything to turn on and the garage doors open.

[Teken]

I experienced my first all on event tonight which seemed to be caused when by a motion sensor on control which runs a program to turn on a light connected to the load of a KPL.  There is also another program triggered to turn on another scene which has other kpl buttons as controllers, and most lights as responders and I have a 2 second delay before turning that scene on.  Based on discussions earlier in this thread it sounds like that should be okay?  I used to have delays in programs that were triggered by motion events because I thought that was a source of problems previously, but when I replaced my PLM with the new one that is a 3413S Rev 2.0 with firmware v9E I thought the possibility of an all on was gone so I removed the delays, but that was over a month ago.

 

This is with a 994i/IR Pro, and I do not have an ELK or a forced air furnace, and our dryer has electronic ignition, but was not running at the time, and the ISY is not plugged into a UPS.  I think that answers all the questions from previous posts.

 

I didn't have an event viewer running, but have the log if that helps to debug it I can post it, and I will send it to support... Needless to say, it freaked out my wife for everything to turn on and the garage doors open.

 

Since this is your first and hopefully only ALL ON event you may not be a candidate to use option 2. For those who have seen this problem consistently, as painful as it is unplug the ISY for a few weeks and see.

 

To further illustrate this suggestion unplug the PLM and report back. I have yet to see, read, hear of one person who has done this and reported the outcome.

 

If Stu is able a simple test would be to swap the PLM that is using the 994 to the 99 and see. This may be impossible given the specific use case for the gate etc where as the other controls so many other house elements.

 

If the problem follows the PLM we have something to go by. If it does not follow the PLM it only leaves the ISY in the loop at this point in time. One would expect to see if there was a bad firmware hundreds of people would be on the forums indicating the same.

 

To date I have not seen, read, or heard of any controller either software or hardware exhibit this ALL ON / ALL OFF issue. I am also quite taken aback that this issue persists with a PLM that does not have the ALL ON / ALL OFF commands in the device tables.

[LeeG]

Unplugging the PLM will produce a solid/permanent Insteon error on all devices that are physically operated because all the devices have links back to the PLM.  DO NOT Delete PLM!

[Jimbo.Automates]

Thanks Teken, I agree since this is my first time I will wait for suggestions from UDI after they review my log.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[SteveL]

Jimbo,

 

Thanks for your post and you email to support. This has been an issue that a few people have seen over the years but it is far from systemic.

 

We have seen a pattern with others that have posted the Motion / Keypad sequence as the trigger. The delays that you previously had will be helpful in preventing the signal collision that more than likely is causing the event. There is a group in the PLM that can control all the devices to it.

[Teken]

Thanks Teken, I agree since this is my first time I will wait for suggestions from UDI after they review my log.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Agreed, provide as much data as possible and hopefully something pops out.

 

@LeeG,

 

I have never seen a problem using my Insteon network if the ISY / PLM was off line. The only things that are impacted are programs like timers etc.

 

It goes without saying deleting a PLM is not a first choice. But given there are at least three members all using the latest PLM that does not have the ALL ON / ALL OFF commands, yet this problem still exists.

 

The options of root cause are quickly running out at this point in time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Teken]

Jimbo,

 

Thanks for your post and you email to support. This has been an issue that a few people have seen over the years but it is far from systemic.

 

We have seen a pattern with others that have posted the Motion / Keypad sequence as the trigger. The delays that you previously had will be helpful in preventing the signal collision that more than likely is causing the event. There is a group in the PLM that can control all the devices to it.

From reading some of the Insteon literature and spec sheet. They indicate the Insteon protocol was designed to negate signal and data collisions is this not the case?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jimbo.Automates]

Jimbo,

 

Thanks for your post and you email to support. This has been an issue that a few people have seen over the years but it is far from systemic.

 

We have seen a pattern with others that have posted the Motion / Keypad sequence as the trigger. The delays that you previously had will be helpful in preventing the signal collision that more than likely is causing the event. There is a group in the PLM that can control all the devices to it.

 

Thanks Steve.  Just to be clear, and make sure I understand... I currently have a 2 second delay for turning on the button scene:

All FR Area Status - [ID 0169][Parent 0168]

If
        Status  'Downstairs / Bar / Bar Cans' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Bar / Bar Shelves' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Door KPL (Nook)' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Fireplace' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Table' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Cans' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Inside Cabinet' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL.A (Island)' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Under Cabinet' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Living Room / Living Room Buffet' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Living Room / Dining Room Door (Outside)' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Pool Room / Pool Room Cans' is not Off
     Or Status  'Downstairs / Pool Room / Pool Table' is not Off
     Or Status  'Outside / BackYard / FamilyRoomDoorOutside' is not Off
     Or Status  'Outside / BackYard / Side Yard Right' is not Off
 
Then
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set Scene 'All / All - FamilyRoomArea - Button' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

The interesting part is that I have only recently, over the past couple weeks, started creating and controlling the scenes mentioned in the program above.

 

The programs that control the lights are a big state machine which I have been phasing out and switching to linking the motion sensors to the scene instead, but the one that seemed to be directly involved with this all on event, has not been converted yet.  And it is the one that controls the 'Downstairs / Living Room / Dining Room Door (Outside)' light in that program.

 

So you are asking to put back in a 2 second delay from motion trigger to set light on, right?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Jimbo.Automates]

Looking at that program I just posted again, I guess I should check the status of one KPL button that is in the scene to reduce the traffic as well.

All FR Area Status - [ID 0169][Parent 0168]

If
        Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL.A (Island) / Kitchen KPL.H (All FRA)' is Off
    And (
             Status  'Downstairs / Bar / Bar Cans' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Bar / Bar Shelves' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Door KPL (Nook)' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Fireplace' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Family Room / Family Room Table' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Cans' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Inside Cabinet' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen KPL.A (Island)' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Table' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Kitchen / Kitchen Under Cabinet' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Living Room / Living Room Buffet' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Living Room / Dining Room Door (Outside)' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Pool Room / Pool Room Cans' is not Off
          Or Status  'Downstairs / Pool Room / Pool Table' is not Off
          Or Status  'Outside / BackYard / FamilyRoomDoorOutside' is not Off
          Or Status  'Outside / BackYard / Side Yard Right' is not Off
        )
 
Then
        Wait  2 seconds
        Set Scene 'All / All - FamilyRoomArea - Button' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Because that KPL.H is the controller of another scene 'All - FamilyRoomArea' which has all the lights, in that 'or' list as responders, so the button already lights up when a light comes on.  I only have the program to keep it on if one of them is turned off...

[SteveL]

Jimbo,

 

Thanks for the follow up. I did get your email and I will be responding to you shortly.

[Michel Kohanim]

With all due respect to Jimbo (and I know you are in good hands with Steve), I am much more interested in what Stusviews has experienced :

1. There were no programs involved

2. There was no traffic

3. It was a fast on event

 

Stusviews, do you happen to have any ControLincs or older RemoteLincs?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

Jimbo,

 

Thanks so very much for all the details.

 

Others with the same issue: it's apparent that in 99% of the cases (except for stusviews which is quite baffling), it's always the interaction between an RF sensor and a KPL (usually through a program but perhaps in other cases as well). This scenario is pretty much consistent with everything we have experienced or reviewed.

 

As such, would you guys please provide:

1. The model number, firmware version, and the address of both the KPL and the sensor that you use in programs (i.e. the one that uses Motion Sensor to turn on/off a KPL button/load)?

2. The firmware version of your PLM as well as its address

3. Is it at all possible that the same sensor is a controller in another scene? If so, is it possible that the same KPL might be part of the same scene? If not, what's in the other scene (i.e. how many devices of what type)?

4. (Pretty much impossible but I should ask) Is it at all possible that the sensor is a responder in any scenes?

 

You can use the Membership pane (to the right) to answer questions 3 and 4.

 

stusviews, if you were present when this happened, do you recall what might have triggered this event? Was it perhaps a sensor that was controller in a scene?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Techman]

I've only had one ALL ON event and that took place when there was no other Insteon activity, but it also took place about a month before the power supply circuit in my (22 month old) PLM failed.

 

I'm wondering if AC voltage fluctuations could be a factor in triggering an action in the PLM.   Just curious if anyone has put a digital voltmeter on the AC line to monitor line voltage, especially during evening hours when the loads are high.

 

It's a long shot but being that there's no answer yet I thought I would throw this out.

[stusviews]

Hi Michel,

 

I have at least seven RemoteLincs, 2440. I hope that's not the cause. My spouse has become extremely tolerant of my penchant to automate everything. She actually laughed at the last All on, but I'm not sure if it was the event or me that caused the laughter. More importantly, she relies on her RemoteLinc. The Mini Remote is too--mini.

 

Stu

[dstanley]

I'm wondering if AC voltage fluctuations could be a factor in triggering an action in the PLM.

 

All of my ALL ON events were when I pressed a manual button to open one my garage doors. I have an I/O Link on each door with a sensor to determine if they are open and the I/O Link control line wired to the opener. I had an ISY Program that watches the I/O Link and turns on the garage ceiling light (SwitchLinc) as well as a few KPL secondary buttons for LED status lights. I Inserted delays into the program before the keypad led scenes turned on but still had an event after that.

 

I was thinking the same thing - some type of power anomaly caused the PLM to issue the Insteon All On command embedded in the firmware. I received the test PLM with modified firmware from UD and since early September I have NOT had an all on event.

 

I had planned to isolate the garage door opener motors with a FilterLinc but since the PLM swap it seemed unnecessary.

 

Not sure now what to think of all the troubles others are having with the supposedly changed firmware!?

 

Dwight