"button groupings migrated/accomplished through scenes...

[jtara92101]

What the heck does this actually mean? (Buttons Grouping dialog).

WARNING:

 

It is highly recommended that button groupings are migrated/accomplished through Scenes by adjusting respective On Levels. By doing so correct status of the buttons are also reflected in ISY regardless of their groupings.

 

 

Then there are more dire warnings, which may or may not have anything to do with this.

 

So, we should drag buttons into "Mutually exclusive Buttons" 1/2 or not? And, if not, do what?

 

Apparently I made some sort of sense of this once, (or at least thought I had) as I see I have set up these scenes for my Living Room Keypad:

 

LR A LED Mood Mutuals

LR B LED TV Mutuals

LR C LED Dine Mutuals

 

each of these has the other two LEDs in them. But the level was set 100%, and the button lights did work correctly, so I don't think I was actually using this. Actually, I think I probably started to set this up and then encountered the same problem. I don't have a clue what is expected.

 

I have scenes for:

 

LR Default

LR Mood

LR Dine

LR TV

 

and each of these includes the LEDs that I want shut off when the scene is activated.

 

The reason this came up is I ordered custom engraved buttons, and decided to change the button positions. So, I had to do some rearranging on the ISY.

Edited October 15, 2014 by jtara92101

[stusviews]

Create four scenes. Set the On-level for each device in each scene. That includes setting the On-level to Off for each of the three buttons not in the scene.

[jtara92101]

Create four scenes. Set the On-level for each device in each scene. That includes setting the On-level to Off for each of the three buttons not in the scene.

OK, that's what I've been doing. LR Default (controller is the main button), LR Mood/Dine/TV all set the on-level for the other buttons to off.

 

But I ALSO set the buttons to mutually-exclusive by dragging them into group 1, which doesn't seem to do any harm.

 

Not sure what I was trying to do with the "Mutuals" scenes.

 

Maybe I was trying to simplify. It's an awful lot of setup! Especially when you want a button on a different keypad to alter some of the same lights, and, thus (to avoid confusion) need to turn off the LED. Most of my buttons are activities, and so if you start some activity from a different keypad in the same general area, then you have to think about what LEDs you have to turn off on other keypads. And your "all off" has to do this too. To further complicate things, I have a button on every keypad "other areas" that will turn off the lights in other areas of the house and of course that needs to turn off all of the LEDs in all of the rest of the house...

[jtara92101]

Hmmmm... I've found that simply including the buttons in each scene, and setting the levels to 0 does NOT consistently work. It seems it is necessary to use Buttons Grouping, regardless of advise otherwise. 

 

I had a persistent problem with a bathroom keypad controller, where it was always turning on the Shave LED when I hit the main button, even though the scene that the main button activates turns the Shave LED off!

 

Once I checked the C/Shave box in Buttons Grouping for the main button (to the far right) now it shuts off the Shave LED when I tap the main.

 

e.g. what I want (and works now). Hit main button, it activates the "MB Default" scene, and shuts off the A,B,C Leds. (D shows status/shuts off other areas). Hit any of A,B,C, the LED turns on, the other two turn off, and the main button is lit as well.

[MWareman]

I recently had a 6 button KPL (about 3 years old) working flawlessly controlling a fanlinc using only scenes.

It was a relay device though - I wanted to change to a dimmer (for the light) - so got a new 6 button KPL (latest firmware). I could not get the scene method to work at all - I had to revert to button grouping. No idea why.

[LeeG]

Clicking on the Scene name and setting On Levels does not affect each Controller.   Click the Red button node below the Scene name and set those On Levels as needed.

[jtara92101]

Clicking on the Scene name and setting On Levels does not affect each Controller.   Click the Red button node below the Scene name and set those On Levels as needed.

 

As opposed to "Copy Scene Attributes From..."?

 

When I change levels in a scene, I then go to every controller of that scene and Copy Scene Attributes From... It's never made sense to me, but, hey, I know it's necessary.

 

Once I've done that, the on levels are set the same as in the scene, so I don't know what more I can do.

 

I've pretty much given up on this. I've accepted that the LEDs are going to take on random states without rhyme or reason. Maybe some day they will come up with some UI that humans can understand.

 

Now I am trying to initiate the same scene from two different keypads, and no way can I get the LEDs to work properly. I add the LEDs for both keypads to the scene, and Copy Scene Attributes From... but the LEDs are only set correctly on for the keypad that you push. That suggests to me that only the mutual-exclusion is working, and that setting the LED level in either the scene or the controller does nothing at all.

 

It's hard to experiment, because the doesn't seem to be any way to remove buttons from groupings other than by doing a Reset which comes with a dire warning about damaging the scene. Once you have dragged a button to a group, all you can do with it after that it to drag it to the other group. There doesn't seem to be a way to "ungroup".

 

Every few months, I decide to struggle with this again and get a little bit more kind-of working. It's not all the ISY's fault - the unreliable Insteon hardware certainly doesn't help a bit. Had I to do it again, I would not have spent the money on this barely-working stuff.

 

When a software engineer Just Doesn't Get It, I can't imagine how others struggle with this.

 

Back into hibernation for a few months.

 

Hats off to those who do this professionally. I used to think they were over-priced. Now I realize they are not over-priced, just beyond my budget for something that is really not worth the cost that it takes to get this incomprehensible and unreliable stuff to work. I'm sure it's mostly an art, and involves selecting those parts that actually work together based on hard-won experience and eating the cost of lots of costly mistakes.

 

Edit: trying to control the same scene from two different keypads, not only does it NOT turn off the LEDs on the other keypad, (which is what I want to do) it actually turns ALL of them On (on the other keypad)! So, i get the correct buttons on the keypad that I press, but completely incorrect LEDs on the other keypad. Yet both the scene and controller have the level set to 0 for the buttons that should be off.

Edited October 16, 2014 by jtara92101

[EricK]

Jtara, I'll have to check my isy but I never use button groups. For newer kpls you should be able to add buttons to a scene and have them turn off in response to a scene triggered by a Kpl button on the same Kpl.

I have an older Kpl on which a few buttons turn on instead of turning off in response to a dining scene triggered by a Kpl button on another Kpl. I have a clean up program that is triggered by the dining scene kpls to turn off a dining correction scene for which those misbehaving buttons are responders. Sometimes things don't work perfectly (Stu has called these gremlinks) but fortunately you can use the isy to easily set up a few correction programs to get things running like you want. Just remember that you cannot turn off a Kpl button directly. You have to add that button to a scene as a responder and then turn that scene off.

For example:

If control bathroom main is on. (Status may work better depending upon the device type and if you trigger the main in scene only from the Kpl)

Then set scene shave led off. (The shave led is a responder of the shave led off scene).

 

I posted this link in a thread the other day. It has a great description of using programs to monitor scenes.

http://www.adamsj.com/isy/basementA.htm

Don't give up yet.

Eric

[jtara92101]

Well, I solved part of it.

 

When you use the Copy Scene Attributes From... button, it does NOT copy the attributes for LED buttons!

 

As a previous poster mentioned, you have to set these on the controller. Copy copies everything else.

 

I was aware of not being able to set LEDs directly, but thought that was only to turn them on from a program. I do that successfully, and have a small number of scenes set-up for that. It's for my "Other Areas" buttons. The LED the D button of every keypad shows the status of lights in other areas. That is, if any lights are on in other areas, the LED is lit, otherwise it is unlit. This is controlled by a program, and so I'd had to set-up scenes for this. (Pressing the D button actually turns off the lights in other areas, and then ice they are off the LED will reflect that.)

[jtara92101]

^ That only solves the problem for a single keypad, though.

 

As far as I can tell there is NO way to turn of an LED on a different keypad when you activate a scene from different keypad. The level settings for the LEDs on the other keypad (both in the scene and controller) are simply ignored. Actually, worse. I still get the symptom where all 3 of the LEDs on the other keypad light, even if they weren't lit.

[jtara92101]

If I turn the scene on manually from the ISY UI, it turns on ALL of the LEDs on BOTH keypads.

 

If I turn the scene off manually from the ISY UI, it turn off ALL of the LEDs on BOTH keypads.

 

It seems it simply ignores the levels.

 

I'm out of ideas.

[LeeG]

I suggest doing a Factory Reset on the KPL that is not reacting to a 0% On Level correctly, Delete from ISY and add back.  Do NOT use Button Grouping.  Post the KPL Controller entry in the Scene that does not correctly turn Off a button LED with 0% On Level.

 

The reason each Controller has to be set is each Insteon Controller in a Scene (PLM for Scene name, other defined Controllers for the same Scene), the Responder Link Record in each Responder is keyed to the Controller Insteon address.

 

SceneC - PLM is Controller

KPL1 button C - Controller

KPL2 button C - Controller

 

KPL1 button C has a Responder link record keyed to the PLM address

KPL1 button C has a Responder link record keyed to KPL2 button C

 

These two Responder link records above in KPL1 for button C can have different On Levels which function independent of each other.

 

KPL2 button C has a Responder link record keyed to the PLM address

KPL2 button C has a Responder link record keyed to KPL1 button C

 

These two Responder link records above in KPL2 for button C can have different On Levels which function independent of each other.

Edited October 16, 2014 by LeeG

[jtara92101]

This happens with BOTH Keypads, though. 

 

I suppose I could factory-reset them and restore, but to also remove the button grouping - there is that dire warning. So, they would need to be removed from every scene they are a part of (or just where they serve as controller?) and then put back in. It would take a half day. Not worth it. I'll live with 4 LEDs on or only being able to set the scene from one keypad.

 

The biggest problem here is that the ISY hides the real functionality of controllers behind a "scene" abstraction. Insteon has no concept of "scene" at all, the documentation doesn't explain it very well, and the UI seems to try awfully hard not to show the man behind the curtain.

Edited October 16, 2014 by jtara92101

[LeeG]

'Insteon has no concept of "scene" at all,"

 

The term Scene originates with Insteon.  From the KPL User Guide Title "INSTEON® 6 and 8-Button Scene Control Keypad with Dimmer"

 

Okay.   I thought a solution was needed.   

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi jtara92101,

 

 

The biggest problem here is that the ISY hides the real functionality of controllers behind a "scene" abstraction. Insteon has no concept of "scene" at all, the documentation doesn't explain it very well, and the UI seems to try awfully hard not to show the man behind the curtain.

This is simply not true.

 

May I humbly suggest contacting our tech support. The least we can do is to help you understand what can be done and what can't. 

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I suppose I could factory-reset them and restore, but to also remove the button grouping - there is that dire warning. So, they would need to be removed from every scene they are a part of (or just where they serve as controller?) and then put back in. It would take a half day. Not worth it. I'll live with 4 LEDs on or only being able to set the scene from one keypad

 

Actually, I think you are making it more complicated than need be.  It won't take anywhere near that long.

 

I have used mutually-exclusive relationships, but find that they are, simply, not as versatile as using scenes.  These relationships are enforced only within a given keypad, when one of its buttons is pressed.  It is not enforced when called by other device and scenes, which I suspect is why you are having trouble.  You appear to be using more than one keypad to control a given "activity", and the mutual relationships will simply not be enforced on one keypad when activated by one of the other keypads.  Mutually-exclusive relationships are unrelated to any of your ISY scenes, BTW.  My suggestion is to get rid of any such mutual-exclusive relationships you have established.  

 

Once done, I think you can achieve what you want (unless you have one of these older KPLs mentioned by EricK, and unless you intend to call these scenes from the ISY) with a single scene.  This scene would include ALL the buttons from all the four activities and all the keypads.  This means if you have four activities (default, dine, mood, TV) and controlling these activities from two keypads, you would have eight buttons in that scene.  All the buttons would be controllers of that scene.  The trick is to make sure that the ON levels are properly set for all eight controllers. 

 

I would expect that, with proper guidance from tech support, you can get this done in less than an hour.  Take UDI up on this offer.

 

I agree with the others regarding the scene terminology.  Though it seems smarthome uses the term "links" a little bit more than they used to, the term "scenes" is definitely part of the insteon lexicon, not just of the ISY. 

[Scyto]

I have just migrated away from a revolv to the ISY994i.  I have one of the INSTEON 2334-232 Keypad Dimmer Switch (Dual-Band), 6-Button I am trying to setup.  And I suspect there are some bugs somewhere either in the device itself or the ISY implementation for these devices....

 

A few observations:

 

1) why is it described as (2334-2) KeyPadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.43 when the product clearly states it has six buttons?

 

2) I have created the 'scene' approach as instructed - I have four scenes, one each for the A (TV), B (Movies), C (Games) and D (Other) buttons.  When I test each scene in the ISY they work brilliantly.  IE only one of the four scene buttons is on (TV, Movies, Games, Other).  However when I test on the unit the behavior is totally random for example TV gets turned on the movie button light lights and the TV light goes off two of the responders get set to correct lighting level and another gets set to 100% on.  If I press the movies button all 4 scene lights go on! Two responders get set correctly and one responder gets set to 100%.

 

I can't fathom it - this is the one piece of functionality I switched the ISY for!  any ideas how to get it working properly?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Scyto

[LeeG]

The ON/OFF buttons work as a single function. ON turns the load On, OFF turns the load Off. The 5 button description refers to the fact that 5 ISY nodes are defined rather than 6. The ON/OFF buttons, although physically different buttons, control the single primary node, the one node that represents the load.

 

In Insteon each Controller has a unique set of Responder On Levels. When testing the Scenes through the ISY the PLM is the Controller. When pressing a button on the KPL that button is the Controller for which Insteon has unique Responder On Levels.

 

Click the Red button A node below the Scene name. Set the Responder On Levels for that button.

 

Click on the next Red B button below the Scene name and set the Responder On Levels for that button, and so on.

 

That part of Insteon works well as the KPLs that control my FanLinc Fan speed are set up to have only one KPL Secondary button (A,B,C, or D) On at a time.

 

Hopefully the Buttons Grouping button was not used as the warning messages warned against.

Edited November 3, 2014 by LeeG

[Scyto]

Thanks LeeG - got it about the on/off but IMO the description should match the product name, I know it has only five nodes, but anyways no biggie.

 

Ahh I see the issue now, I set the responder levels at the scene level and NOT the red node level - though as I never set anything at the red node level it is a mystery to me how they got set the random ways they did.  From a new user point of view it makes little sense that I can set at both the scene level and the red node level.  In fact the settings are contradictory. And make no sense given the lighting status for 'Red Button A' is set at the higher level and not at the lower level. The confusion on my part as a newbie wasn't helped by the fact that testing the scene by turning the scene on at the scene level functioned perfectly. I can only guess that the somehow the scene gets activated and then the red node overrides the scene settings?  If that's the case why is the scene level and the red node level not linked and locked?

 

Gotta say this UI and the internal ISY data structures and hierarchy are some of the oddest I have ever come across

 

This likely explains some the identical symptoms some of the folks above are having!

Edited November 3, 2014 by Scyto

[Scyto]

Ok, I am still getting something wrong here - what ever I am doing is causing communication failures when writing to the A/B/C/D buttons on the devices.

 

I want to be sure I am creating these correctly - can someone confirm:

 

1. Create four scenes A/B/C/D
2. too each of the scenes add the devices to be controlled as a responders
3. For each scene add the corresponding A/B/C/D button as a controller
4. For each scene add the remaining A/B/C/D buttons as a responder
5. ( - at this point I start getting random communication failures and red bangs)
6. on the controller item in each scene (the red texted item) set the levels for the other 3 buttons

 

Questions:

1. why am I getting comms issues only when I configure the system this way on a 6 key switchlinc dimmer that other wise has functioned perfectly?
2. what am I supposed to set the levels of the buttons at the scene level?
3. what should (if anything) I do about toggle mode?

 

I have attached an example of what it looks like - for some reason the writing icon is still displayed - I think because of the funky comms all of sudden

 

regards

alex

Edited November 4, 2014 by Scyto

[oberkc]

It sometimes takes a while to write a lot of changes.  The little green symbol suggests that there ARE changes to be written.  Right click on a device and choose "write changes".  Keep trying if it fails once.

 

Repeated failures to write suggest, in my mind, communication difficulties.

[LeeG]

"why am I getting comms issues only when I configure the system this way"

 

communications problems setting up KPL configuration simply means the more updates needed the more likely the probability of seeing errors. do not attach more then comm problems exist.

 

Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. This will show how well comm to the KPL is working. Usually there is marginal comm all the time.

 

 

 

"what am I supposed to set the levels of the buttons at the scene level?"

 

That depends on what you are using the Scenes for. Explain what you are doing with the Scene name in terms of Program usage.

 

 

 

"what should (if anything) I do about toggle mode?"

 

Nothing.

[Scyto]

Great question about what I am trying to do.

 

I am trying to control one group of lights (3 responders) and have the 3 scene buttons perform mutually exclusive functions.  I want, say, the A button to set them all to 10%, then when I press B I want the lights to be set to 50% and the A button light to go out and then when I press C the lights to go to 75% and the B button (or A button to go out) and so on.

 

I wasn't planning to use programs. I am trying to do it with the scene function.  the only thing not working is the already 'on' scene button not being turned off when I select a different scene button.

 

I also insist that the behavior of the system with regard to communication errors makes no sense - it ONLY happens with the 4 scene buttons on these 6 button dimmers.  All other normal dimmers etc work 100% fine with no comms issues.  also setting the main on/off on the 6 button keypad dimmers works just fine... I think there is a bug...

[oberkc]

Perhaps a bug.  I don't know.  It works for me, but sometimes I must try a couple of times.  One thing that helps me is to turn off the automatic write function until all changes are defined, then turn the write function back on...programming the keypad all at once.

[LeeG]

The Scene name Responder values are not important since the Scene name is not being used in a Program. The exception would be controlling the Scene name from an application like Mobilinc but that has not been mentioned.

 

Scene "A" ......Cans.A Controller, the Responder values are fine as posted in the image. Buttons .....Cans.B, .....Cans.C, and .....Cans.D set to 0% On Level results in buttons B,C,D turning Off when button A is turned On.

 

Please run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Select Write Updates for one of the pending nodes and paste the event trace into a post. Understand your belief there "is a bug" which the event trace will show if one exists.

Edited November 4, 2014 by LeeG