Can a 2477D Switchlinc operate as RF only?

[stusviews]

It is not in compliance with the Canadian Electrical Code (CSA) to run only a neutral. It is also unsafe, especially if the lone neutral is not on the opposite leg of the split, single-phase electric supply .

 

The correct wiring is to run a 3-wire white sheathed cable (black, red, white) between the fixture and the switch.

Edited December 15, 2014 by stusviews

[416to305]

Running a 3 wire cable isn't practical as we just finished the basement a few years ago so don't need automation that badly to rip open the ceiling.  Will stick to getting up to turn the lights on and off the old fashion way

[stusviews]

If you get lazy or the automation bug bites, then remove the fixture, change some connections, install a SwitchLinc or KeypadLinc in the switch box, a Micro Module in the ceiling box, cross-link the devices and reinstall the fixture. No new wires needed.

[416to305]

The only problem with that that I'm unclear on is:

 

1) That switch controls 2 ceiling lights, so would I need 2 micro modules for each? And either way, what happens if I don't get a Switchlinc?  Would it be like having LED bulbs, where if the wall switch is turned off, I can't control them at all?

 

2) For the other 2 switches, they are pot lights.  I haven't taken the switch off the wall to check but I'm assuming there won't be a neutral there if there isn't anywhere else.  So would that mean it is somewhere in the ceiling?  Actually just thinking it's impossible to know, the lights are literally glued to the ceiling lol.  They are designed I guess to go up AFTER your ceiling is done, but we bought them before the ceiling was done, so they were a pain to secure.  They are secured in of course, but just the cover that goes on and covers the bulb, the decorative part absolutely would not snap in deep enough because when you push it up to secure it, the pot light fixture in the ceiling just pushes in deeper, so gave up and used no more nails, since the LED bulbs should hopefully last forever.  So it's not impossible to remove them but definitely will be a major pain lol.  Too bad there wasn't a GU10 LED bulb.

 

Actually I'm just thinking, it might be easier to just replace the fixtures all together even though they are only 2 years old, but replace them with something that uses normal bulbs, and just pop in a few Insteon LED bulbs since they would actually dim, where as the LED bulbs connected to a light on a switchlinc never dim for me (at least the GU10 bulbs that is, that are LED).

 

3) Just a quick one to add, what are the repercussions of buying the 2 wire RF only Switchlinc just to try it?  Like it's mostly halogen bulbs in the light I'd have it on and I'd be fine using them exclusively if it means not having to spend $250 on new fixtures and switches.  Just wondering like if I bought it just to see, would it either just work or not work, or maybe work intermittently, maybe causing the lights to flicker, weird stuff like that?  Or are we taking issues like it would catch fire or blow the circuit or something like that where I shouldn't even try?  Because Amazon is 30 days return so wouldn't mind trying it if there's a possibility.  RF coverage is no issue.

Edited December 15, 2014 by 416to305

[stusviews]

1. If a single switch controls two lights and there is only a two wire cable at the switch, then only one Micro Module is required to control both lights.

 

2. As you indicated, you'll have to open the switch box. BTW, devices wired to wall boxes and ceiling boxes must be removable according to the CSA.

 

3. The 2-wire switch is safe to install. If the load is incorrect, then either the load, the switch or both will cease to function.

[builderb]

There's always Wiremold.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[416to305]

Great thanks I'll check that out and see.  For point 2, the lights can easily come off, they aren't like permanently glued in.  It's just this thin metal decorative piece that pops on over top the light and is the frame over the ceiling.  That can't push in deep enough to snap into place, so I use a couple drops of caulking instead.  Easy to pop off, but bit of a pain to clean up and put back up, since hard to hold in place while it dries.

[416to305]

Hey everyone, okay some more details after I took the switch off.  I'm just really confused because if the white is the neutral, then I do have that but none the less there's only 2 wires.  Was going to take a picture but it's easy to explain.

 

Going into the single light box is a white shielded cable and inside there's a Black, White, and bare ground.

 

The White wire connects to the top connector on the switch, or the Up/On side.

 

The Black wire connects to the bottom connector on the switch, or the Down/Off side.

 

The ground connects to the light box.

 

That's all there is in the box.  My other switches as mentioned instead have the black going to one end of the switch, a red going to the other, and then the bundle of white neutral in behind.  I'm just confused since if the white is neutral, I'm missing the red instead I guess?

 

So based on that confirmation of just a black and white on the current switch, can anyone confirm that a normal dual band Switchlinc, or Z-Wave switch or any switch needing a neutral, will not work here without that micro module in the ceiling?  Then secondly, if it won't work without that, is this a situation where that 2 wire RF only Switchlinc (Assuming it is connected to an incandescent load, not halogen, LED etc), would potentially work?  Thank you!!!

[oberkc]

A normal switch, insteon or zwave, will not work here without the micro module. There is no neutral in this box. (White is not neutral here...do you see any black tape or paint on this white wire?) Yes, this would be where the two wire switch would be appropriate, assuming compatible with the load. Halogen is, by the way, a type of incandescent and should be compatible with the two wire switch.

[416to305]

Great thank you that's what I figured, and no there's no tape anywhere.  I'm going to pick up the 2 wire one from Amazon since 30 days to return it in case it doesn't work, and will see how it goes.  If it works fine with the halogen bulbs then I don't mind not putting LED ones here since these lights really aren't on all that much, it's more for the convenience of turning them off remotely as there's nothing worse than being upstairs about to go to bed and seeing the light from the far side of the basement shining upstairs.

[toflaherty]

For any switch box without a neutral you can simply change a couple of connections, install a SwitchLinc On/Off of dimmer, cap the load wire and install a Micro Module in the ceiling box, thus enabling control of any load. BTW, the On/Off module clicks, the dimmer is silent, so the dimmer is usually the device of choice.

Stu, could you please elaborate on the "simply change a couple of connections?"

 

I have a hallway with wall sconces with a 3-way switch.  Both switch boxes only have 3-wire cables in them (black, white, red), all of which are hot.  The white isn't marked in any way, so I wrapped some black electrical tape around the white wire in each box as what should have been done by the electrician...

 

I have identified which black wire in which switch box is always hot, but even if I were to use a micro module in one of the wall sconce boxes to control the lights, I don't follow how to get a neutral to the switch boxes to power the switchlincs.  It seems like the rf-only switches would be my only option, but I already have regular switchlincs and LED bulbs, so rf-only switchlinc is not ideal.

 

Thanks for any help.

[oberkc]

Stu, could you please elaborate on the "simply change a couple of connections?"

 

I have a hallway with wall sconces with a 3-way switch. Both switch boxes only have 3-wire cables in them (black, white, red), all of which are hot. The white isn't marked in any way, so I wrapped some black electrical tape around the white wire in each box as what should have been done by the electrician...

 

I have identified which black wire in which switch box is always hot, but even if I were to use a micro module in one of the wall sconce boxes to control the lights, I don't follow how to get a neutral to the switch boxes to power the switchlincs. It seems like the rf-only switches would be my only option, but I already have regular switchlincs and LED bulbs, so rf-only switchlinc is not ideal.

 

Thanks for any help.

You would need to repurpose existing conductors by changing connections in the fixture box.

 

If each switch location has only a single 3-conductor cable, then it is a near certainty that both cables terminate at the fixture box. If so, you will not need a micro module at all. At the fixture box, identify supply hot and neutral. From the 2 cables from the switch boxes, you would connect white to supply neutral and black to supply hot. This would give you hot and neutral at both switch locations.

 

Using one of the new insteon switches, connect red wire to the red conductor in the cable. At the fixture, connect the other end of that red conductor to fixture hot. Cap unused red wires and conductors

Edited December 17, 2014 by oberkc

[toflaherty]

You would need to repurpose existing conductors by changing connections in the fixture box.

 

If each switch location has only a single 3-conductor cable, then it is a near certainty that both cables terminate at the fixture box. If so, you will not need a micro module at all. At the fixture box, identify supply hot and neutral. From the 2 cables from the switch boxes, you would connect white to supply neutral and black to supply hot. This would give you hot and neutral at both switch locations.

 

Using one of the new insteon switches, connect red wire to the red conductor in the cable. At the fixture, connect the other end of that red conductor to fixture hot. Cap unused red wires and conductors

Thanks.  I will just have to identify if the supply hot coming into the one switch box comes there first or if it goes to one of the wall boxes first.  I guess it's more likely that it would go to a wall box first, otherwise there would be a neutral present in the switch box... I'll definitely need to spend more time on this to figure out/understand your suggestion which would not require a micro module.

[stusviews]

Caution! A white wire is not always a neutral wire. When a switch box has only two wires, black and white, the standard procedure is to make while line and black load. This is done to avoid having two white wires connected to the fixture.

 

And, in a 3-way configuration, white can be line or a traveler. That's because a 3-way switch needs three wires (which is why it's called 3-way), none of which are neutral. Each 3-way switch has two travelers. The third connection is either line (at one end) or load (at the other end). But 3-wire Romex has only black, red, and white.

[oberkc]

Thanks.  I will just have to identify if the supply hot coming into the one switch box comes there first or if it goes to one of the wall boxes first.  I guess it's more likely that it would go to a wall box first, otherwise there would be a neutral present in the switch box... I'll definitely need to spend more time on this to figure out/understand your suggestion which would not require a micro module.

Given your description of your wiring, supply is almost certainly introduced at the fixture box. Google is your friend when trying to understand different wiring approaches for three-way circuits.

[stusviews]

toflaherty, if each 3-way switch has only black, red, and white, then you will have to remove the fixture to change the connections. Any white wire connected to a 3-way switch is NOT a neutral. Any white wire connected to a standard on/off switch is NOT a neutral

[toflaherty]

Success!  Thanks guys.

[416to305]

Hey everyone, Merry Christmas!  So just to test it out I got my mom to get me the 2 wire Switchlinc for xmas lol, I said I'm probably the only person in the world next to maybe some people on here that actually asked for and got a light switch for christmas haha.

 

Anyway, just installed it quick downstairs in the basement on the main switch with 2 lights all halogen and it worked immediately just like any other.  Going to try it on the other lights after as well just to see what happens, but so far so good!

[416to305]

Hi everyone quick update. I just moved the two wire dimmer to the other lights in the basement that only have a black and white except they are on my pot lights which are three LED lights and it works there also. they don't do them properly and when you turn it on or off from the switch it's kind of like flicker, flicker, on but it is controllable from my phone and the ISY.

 

So I guess it doesn't have to be just incandescent bulbs? Either way would either work or not work as in if it's working is it safe to leave it?

 

 

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[oberkc]

Sometimes one can get lucky with devices other than incandescent.  Even if it "works", however, you may be running the risk of long-term damage to load, switch, or both. 

 

Personally, I would probably NOT leave them this way given the flickering and evidence of operation other than proper.

[416to305]

I moved it back to the switch that has halogen so I will see you, but the way the LED lights flicker is how most of my lights do you even on normal dimmers. It seems like LED lights that are GU10 can't do them properly the way a full size bulb can. if you do a fast on or fast off then you would have no idea as they come on instantly and off instantly so I think it's probably okay for the most part but worst case I could switch those bulbs to halogen as well.

 

On a sidenote, is there anything I should do after adding new devices so that the network can mesh properly or is that automatic? It's working fine right now but I was just wondering how on RF only device knows who else to connect to to route messages through or if it does it automatically.

 

 

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[LeeG]

It is automatic.  The RF/powerline signal is sent in the blind.  Any device receiving the signal repeats it.  There are rules of course, all internal to Insteon devices.   On insteon.com there is an insteondetails.pdf document that describes how all that works together if interested.  Not needed to use Insteon but good reading for those interested in the internal details.

[Brian H]

LeeG,

I believe some of the latest Insteon devices. Now have the ability to have RF and Power Line communications. Turned On or Off through software commands.

Teken's Great review of the 2663-222 Dual Outlet. The ISY module settings screen shot. Shows a check box for RF and Power Line.

[LeeG]

Thanks Brian.   Should make for some interesting trouble shooting when a Dual Band device is not really a Dual Band device.  I wonder if that means the device does not relay in the mode that is turned Off as well as not sending it's own commands in that mode.  Did not find any info in owner's manual.