Fireplace Low Voltage Control Switch

[SulersCS]

Hi,

 

I'm still setting up different devices and sensors to my ISY, mainly using INSTEON at the moment. I've replaced all my switches with the 2477D switches but when it came to my fireplace, it seems like it's just using a low voltage wire to control it. Meaning that there isn't a hot or neutral wire available there. So because of this, is there any solutions that you guys have found for this that's enclosed inside the wall besides the I/O Linc which requires a outlet to be there and also requires it to be visible?

 

Thanks,

Suler

[Teken]

Hi,

 

I'm still setting up different devices and sensors to my ISY, mainly using INSTEON at the moment. I've replaced all my switches with the 2477D switches but when it came to my fireplace, it seems like it's just using a low voltage wire to control it. Meaning that there isn't a hot or neutral wire available there. So because of this, is there any solutions that you guys have found for this that's enclosed inside the wall besides the I/O Linc which requires a outlet to be there and also requires it to be visible?

 

Thanks,

Suler

 

Hello Suler,

 

Can you provide the exact model and specifications of this fire place?

[ergodic]

Likely you have a thermocouple-driven gas spark igniter. Same sort of thing used in gas water heaters, it allows it to work even if power is out.

 

These work on very low voltages and don't have anything like the energy needed to power any sort of relay or switch . They also have to be isolated from mains power and everything else.

 

Do you possibly have a fireplace fan switch close by?

[stusviews]

A battery powered programmable thermostat is a possible choice. Too, there's likely a duplex receptacle at the bottom back. It's a tight fit, but accessible. Another choice it to run a pair of conductors from there (below  the insert) alongside the wall to a nearby outlet.

[SulersCS]

I'll find out the model later on tonight and post it on here. I considered a thermostat but I don't want to have something there that doesn't need to be there as it'll stand out in the room since it'll be the only thing sticking out next to my tv/fireplace. That's why I was trying to find a switch as it would make it blend into the wall. If my hands are tied and I'd have no other choice but a I/O Linc, then I'm considering running a power outlet to the basement and pulling the thermostat wires down to the basement and plug it into the I/O linc down there so it's not visible.

 

Another thing is, I don't mind running an electrical wire to where the switch is if whatever device i put in there allows me to control the low voltage fireplace. Do you know if I run power to the switch and I install the 2477S, will that be able to control it from the load? I'm assuming that it might damage it, that's the only reason I haven't tried it...

[SulersCS]

 

ergodic: What do you mean by a fireplace fan switch? I don't believe that my fireplace has a fan as far as I know...

 

[ergodic]

No fan then no switch  . A lot of gas fireplaces (like mine) have a fan unit built-in to blow the air out.

 

I'm not sure I see any role here for anything like a 2477D or 2477S, or for that matter any 120V switching. But maybe I'm missing the idea.

 

The best, simplest, and most certain solution I believe is the battery thermostat like a z-wave, that can be linked to the HA system and won't require line power. You could put this in a nearby recess box with a matching cover and it really shouldn't be obtrusive. A lot depends on the construction and finishes on the wall and your talents in that area.

 

The next best solution I think is to an IOLinc or simplehomenet L/V I/O relay unit and put it in a recess box with a cover and wire power for that to the outlet and put the igniter through that relay. I don't know the distance limits on the igniter line, but given the very small voltages I suspect it isn't much. So the basement thing if that works better and doesn't get the leads too long.

 

Plan to dry-test whatever solution with cords and such before committing to tearing into the walls. All this requires unpleasant drywall/paint work, and if you go the relay route you need a relay unit where the contacts are isolated from mains neutral, and I don't know the internals of either of those devices in that regard. But I'm sure somebody here does.

 

Also I need to just note that you can't run the LV igniter line (a "class 2" circuit) within a live 120V conduit or into a standard J-box with 120V (a "class 1" circuit). That's code and there's a good reason for it.

[stusviews]

Another suggestion: The insert requires AC power. You can install a Micro Module in the junction box and control that module with an INSTEON wireless thermostat.

[SulersCS]

ergodic: Thanks for your input, do you know of any Z-Wave devices that I could use for that scenario just to get an idea of what they'd look like? My alternative I think will be the basement solution.

 

stusviews: I have a micro module, but isn't that just an on/off switch? I know it requires a power line as well which again isn't a problem, but where would the thermostat wires be connected to it?

 

The model of the fireplace is Superior SSDVR3530CNM

[stusviews]

You can install.use an INSTEON wireless thermostat anyplace and use it to control the Micro Module.

 

Coincidentally, we have a Superior fireplace.

[SulersCS]

stusviews: I think i'm a bit confused on how the Micro Module would work with the fireplace.

 

You're talking about INSTEON 2443-222 MICRO ON/OFF MODULE right? Currently the switch for the fireplace only has 2 wires going into that switch. and the Micro Module has the following:

-Neutral

-Line 1

-Line 1

-Line

 

Where would those 2 wires get connected in this scenario and how would the Micro Module get connected to the existing power circuit? Are you basically saying I would need to run a power line to the switch and connect that to the Micro Module's Neutral and Line slots then connect the appropriate cable from the fireplace to the Line 1? If so, what would happen with the 2nd cable coming from the fireplace?

 

Thanks again for your help by the way, still trying to get a complete understanding on how this whole part works. I understand how sensors and switches and all the other parts work. For some reason though, this one is throwing me off.

 

Thanks,

Suler

[larryllix]

If you have a milli-volt control from a thermocouple you will only have a few hundred milli-volts.

 

These units do not recommend having more than one contact in series with the solenoid gas valve and the only switch. The voltage drop can damage your gas valve and you will usually have to replace your burner mechanism. My unit could have a switch and a thermostat in series if I cleaned the contacts once per year. When oxidised the valve would not turn on.

 

If your PLM sends an all On command and you are not home you may cause some danger in your home. Since two series controllers are not recommended it rules out having a high-limit device to shut the fireplace down with overheating when you are not home.

 

You may want to seek some professional advice from the manufacturer on this one. Get names and document for insurance purposes.

[stusviews]

The Micro Module is installed in the electric junction box below the fireplace insert. You need to open the bottom panel for access. Press in and release at the top of both sides of the bottom panel.

[SulersCS]

Ok, I see that would be perfect. So then I'd have to make it so when the Micro Module gets power the fireplace would be triggered to be on? What is it that's controlling the thermostat wire at the fireplace? Wouldn't I still need the wireless thermostat to trigger the actual fire on/off command or does the electrical wiring trigger the fire to be on/off depending if it has power?

[stusviews]

The simplest solution is to leave the existing wall switch on. Or you could connect the two wires together and use a blank switch plate. My spouse loves having a RemotLinc nearby to control the fireplace (hey, guys. WAF went way up with this).

 

As a safety, I installed a battery powered thermostat in place of the switch. That limits, absolutely, the maximum heating possible.

[io_guy]

What I did...

The wall switch for fireplaces is just a low voltage or dry contact.

I left the cable in the wall and replaced the on/off switch with a Leviton momentary switch ($3) which always rocks back to off.

The cable connects up with the igniter under the fireplace.  I placed an IOLinc  in the outlet in my fireplace (installed so I could install an FK24 blower kit) and then moved the cable from the igniter to the IOLinc input.

I then ran a new piece of cable from the IOLinc output to the igniter.

 

Now my fireplace is controlled by the ISY.  If it sees a toggle of the momentary switch it toggles the fireplace on/off.  Doing it this way always me to setup my Harmony to control the fireplace as well and also set a time limit on fireplace runtime.  I also turn it off automatically when I set my alarm or see too much increase in my main floor thermostat (or delta with my one-wire sensors).

[hart2hart]

Deleted. 

[xgfreon]

do they make an iolink device that the 120v can also be triggered on off? this would work perfect for fireplace control as you explain but also plug the blower into the 120v and set to turn on after xxxx minutes of gas ignition. while keeping everything tidy inside the fireplace.

 

 

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[stusviews]

See #13

 

do they make an iolink device that the 120v can also be triggered on off? this would work perfect for fireplace control as you explain but also plug the blower into the 120v and set to turn on after xxxx minutes of gas ignition. while keeping everything tidy inside the fireplace.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

See post #13

[xgfreon]

See #13

 

See post #13

I see the plan to plug the micro module into the Ac box inside. My question is does the micro module you speak of also have the capability of switching a 120 v load as well as the dry contacts in the same unit?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[io_guy]

My fan is controlled by a temperature switch that magnetically mounts to the firebox. Nothing else required - turns on when it's hot.

See FK24 blower kit for what I mean.

[stusviews]

I see the plan to plug the micro module into the Ac box inside. My question is does the micro module you speak of also have the capability of switching a 120 v load as well as the dry contacts in the same unit?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Micro Module can switch line voltage. It has no dry contact capability as does the I/O Linc. The Micro Module is a wired device. The I/O Linc is a plug-in device. See their respective sales pages and Owner's Manuals for a better understanding of what each does.

 

I/O Linc

Micro On/Off Module

[SulersCS]

It looks like there's a outlet under the fireplace as a few of you had mentioned. So I think I'm just going to hook up the I/O Linc under the fireplace and use that to control the fireplace and then I'll run a 110 wire to where the switch was and connect a standard 2477D switch to it so I can control it.

[stusviews]

It looks like there's a outlet under the fireplace as a few of you had mentioned. So I think I'm just going to hook up the I/O Linc under the fireplace and use that to control the fireplace and then I'll run a 110 wire to where the switch was and connect a standard 2477D switch to it so I can control it.

Whatever you do do not use the existing wire for 110/120VAC. The low voltage thermostat/control wire insulation does not have the dielectric strength required for line voltage. Aside from not being in compliance with the electrical code, you may start a fire in the wall.

[SulersCS]

No, I know that much. I'm going to run a 12 Gage cable from another nearby electrical plug for the switch.