When to use a Scene instead of a Prorgam

[Methos000]

I may be in the minority here, but I find myself leaning very hard on Programs and virtually never use scenes so far.  I'll admit that I've only owned my ISY for about 2 weeks, but I've got 44 dimmers, 5 hidden door sensors, 24 motion detectors, two thermostats, a couple KPL's and mini remotes, and I find that I've only created a couple scenes.

 

I've found myself questioning if I am following best practices.  What do you experts think?

 

I lean the programming route heavily since my day job involves programming, so it comes simply natural to go that route.  But would I be better served by using scenes?

 

What are best practices?  I did some searching but haven't found a topic that decisively answers that.

 

Thanks for your time guys!  I look forward to improving my setup.

[stusviews]

If one device is to be capable of controlling one or more other devices 24/7, then a scene is desired. A program is most advantageous when one or more conditions are required; if this, then do that, otherwise do something else (or do nothing).

[Teken]

Program requires the ISY to be on line and active. Linked scenes are natively stored in the device and does not require a controller.

 

During a ISY failure nothing would operate as you would expect.

 

Note I am speaking only about device use and not timed events.

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[paulbates]

Control of devices can be distributed to the insteon network using scenes. This is handy when you want to control multiple devices at the exact same time.

 

As an example, I use a scene to turn on/off my yard lights via three outlet lincs, porch lights and 3 lamps. They all go on and of at the same time.

 

The flip side is that there is no single answer. If programming works for you, use it. You can experiment with scenes as you try more things.

 

Also, share what functions you are trying to automate here on the board. You'll get different ideas that will include scenes and programs.

 

Welcome to the board

 

Paul

[EricK]

Not an expert, but use scenes when possible.  Devices respond faster when using a scene since there is direct device to device communication rather than waiting for the ISY to run the program and send out commands to devices.  If you have three controllers of say your kitchen lights, then definitely create a scene.  Having devices in scenes can also help to make programming easier.  Let's say you want the kitchen lights to turn on at 7am on a timer and there are those three devices in the scene.  Then your program is If time is 7am then set scene kitchen lights on.  If you dont have a scene, the then would require three lines, one on command for each device.  If you add another controller for the kitchen lights, say a KPL button, then you just need to add the button to the scene.  Since your program turns on the scene, no need to add another line to it.

Lights respond to the hidden door sensor much faster with a scene than a program. 

For timers, conditional logic, and notifications (if door is open then notify) you of course need programs. 

[builderb]

Agreed about speed of reaction. It's faster if it's a scene. And as a fail safe, it's better to have scene info stored in the devices themselves.

 

If I can do it with a scene, I do. If I cant, I try to use scenes modified by programs. If that still doesn't do it, I'll go with programming.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Methos000]

I like that rule of thumb, if you CAN use a scene to do it, then you are better off.  ISY Failure and keeping some level of functionality is another great point I wasn't thinking of.

 

That response speed makes a lot of sense too, i was wondering if i could cut out the latency of those door and motion sensors!

 

I guess I was just taking the lazy way out since I didn't want to go around putting them all back into programming mode, but since there is a true benefit, i'll obviously go for it!

 

Good stuff guys, thanks!  I hope someone else finds this thread useful too.

[stusviews]

Unless a device is battery powered, you don't need to put it in linking mode to add it to a scene. The ISY will take care of that for you.

[416to305]

I'll add my bit as well, but most have covered it.  For me, scenes are for when either 1) You want devices to all come on at the same time, as in no delay between them, or 2) You want something like a KeyPadLinc or motion sensor to control a lamp or light.  As others have mentioned, the ISY can be used to set up the scene, but it doesn't need to be on, plugged in, etc for it to work.  So the ISY could be disconnected and that motion sensor will still turn your light on, and the KPL button still does the lights.  It's also super fast, that motion sensor will trip the light on literally the second you walk in the room, and if you had a scene set to turn 5 lights on at the same time, for the most part they will all turn on at the exact same time.

 

The main problem with scenes is that they are ALWAYS either on, or off.  So for example, you want a motion sensor to turn a light on but only between 2pm and 6pm.  A scene won't work, since it's programmed into the physical devices and always runs.  However a program can easily be set to say "If it is between 2 and 6 and motion is ON, turn the light on" and so on.  So here's where I have scenes vs programs:

 

Scenes:

- KPL button to turn my living room lamp on from the wall, since it is connected to a Dimmerlinc.  Normally it is on a timer but sometimes we manually want it on and don't want to get behind the couch to turn it on, or use a phone.

- Guest bathroom motion sensor turns the light on, as I want that to happen fast, and 24/7.  

- Same as above but in the laundry room

- KPL button to turn on my outside christmas lights

- KPL button to turn on my christmas tree

- I have a remotelinc in my bedroom, scene A turns the bathroom light on and off, B turns night table lamp on or off, C turns the ceiling light on or off

- I have a LED bulb (Insteon) in my shower as a scene with the Switchlinc in the bathroom, so when I turn the bathroom light on manually or with motion, both come on at the same time.  If I had this set up as a program, most times the lights will turn on with a 1-2 second delay between them.

- I have a Scene for each KPL button with the button as a responder only.  This is how you make a KPL LED light up or off.

 

Programs:

- Motion sensor turns master bathroom light on with motion.  This is a program because it has to be disabled from midnight to 9am to prevent walking in at 3am and being blinded.  What this actually does is when motion is detected, it triggers the last scene mentioned above, so shower and bathroom turn on at the same time.

- A timer to turn the living room lamp on and off at a certain time (as well as all other lamps)

- Motion sensor in the kitchen turns on the light which is a switchlinc.  This is a program also because I have more logic built in, like disabled until 1pm unless it's dark in the kitchen, fast on will turn on the dining room light, fast off turns off the dining room light, each time I press up on the switchlinc it disables motion for 20 minutes, so for example if I'm going to bed and I want the kitchen light to stay on for an hour, I press up 3 times.

- If my front door opens and hidden door sensor goes off, my front foyer light goes on for 5 minutes then off again.  This can't be done from a scene, because the way a scene would control this would be "When the door is OPEN, the light is on, and when the door is CLOSEd the light is off."  So not possible to say "For 5 minutes then turn off again" etc.

 

Then of course you mix and match.  For example, I mentioned a scene above which turns the KPL button light on or off.  So I have a program that says "If front door or back door opens, then start Scene "KPL A, B, C, D" in master bedroom for 5 minutes."  So that way if the doors open, all 4 of my KPL buttons light up for 5 minutes then turn off.  This is prob my FAV Insteon feature, as my bedroom is on the 3rd floor, so if the neighbours open and close their door at night (which they do all the time), it honestly sounds like it's my front door.  So I love being able to look over at the KPL and see it is off, and know that my doors haven't opened.

 

One quick thing to add too, one of the main reasons I did scenes was as others mentioned, it's faster if a motion sensor trips and turns a light on.  As a scene is near instant vs a delay with a program.  However now I have a mix, Z-Wave motion sensors and Insteon switches, and Insteon motion sensors and Z-Wave switches, yet they are SO fast.  Like just as fast as a scene, I literally have my body half way through the door and the light is already coming on.  When I first got the ISY one of the reasons I didn't like it was because motion programs were so slow that you were literally in the bathroom, would pause, turn to turn the light on instinctively, only to have the motion turn it on.  I never have that issue now, but this is a different ISY so who knows maybe it was a programming issue before, or maybe because I have about 50 devices in total now the network is better meshed, but yeah works well.  (Also keep in mind if you ever get the Z-Wave module, adding Z-Wave and Insteon devices to a scene isn't the same thing in that it will link them through the ISY, but there's no hard coded link between them from what I understand).  The main reason you'll ditch a scene is when you need to control it or disable it periodically, which can only be done with a program.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

Edited December 16, 2014 by 416to305

[builderb]

The main problem with scenes is that they are ALWAYS either on, or off. So for example, you want a motion sensor to turn a light on but only between 2pm and 6pm. A scene won't work, since it's programmed into the physical devices and always runs. However a program can easily be set to say "If it is between 2 and 6 and motion is ON, turn the light on" and so on.

See, this is where I modify a scene with a program. The motion sensor on my front porch controls the porch light, via a KPL inside the front door. MS is set to send on only to the front porch motion scene. After 5 minutes, the ISY turns it off. But from an hour after dawn until 90 min before sunset, I have a program that adjusts the scene's on level to 0.

 

Best of both worlds, the instant on of a scene, and the control of a program.

 

FWIW, I also have a program that disables the motion off if the porch light is turned on at the switch, so if we leave the light on for someone, it stays on even if there's motion.

[EricK]

Lee, you wrote

"- If my front door opens and hidden door sensor goes off, my front foyer light goes on for 5 minutes then off again. This can't be done from a scene, because the way a scene would control this would be "When the door is OPEN, the light is on, and when the door is CLOSEd the light is off." So not possible to say "For 5 minutes then turn off again" etc."

 

You can set the hidden door sensor into a two node mode, which I have done for our basement door. This way opening the door turns the lights on with a scene, but closing it does not turn them off.

You could do this for the on, then use a program to turn the lights off after 5 min. Might need two programs.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Lee, you wrote

"- If my front door opens and hidden door sensor goes off, my front foyer light goes on for 5 minutes then off again. This can't be done from a scene, because the way a scene would control this would be "When the door is OPEN, the light is on, and when the door is CLOSEd the light is off." So not possible to say "For 5 minutes then turn off again" etc."

 

You can set the hidden door sensor into a two node mode, which I have done for our basement door. This way opening the door turns the lights on with a scene, but closing it does not turn them off.

You could do this for the on, then use a program to turn the lights off after 5 min. Might need two programs.

 

I want to do this as well, but I also use the door sensor (triggerlinc not the hidden one) to show the status of doors.  I have a scene DoorOpen and all the triggerlincs are in the scene which also has a KPL button as a responder so I can see if a left a sliding door is open.  I haven't figured out a way to do both without a program.  I don't use this a security system, I know an ELK is the right way to do that, but haven't moved to that yet... That's next on the list after I'm done with all my insteon & z-wave installs...

[416to305]

Thanks EricK!  I didn't even realize it had that as an option, I'll try it out and see how that goes.  Right now it's not terrible though but it would be nice if it was a bit faster.  I may not keep the sensor there, not sure yet just because I think I'll be getting a Schlage lock at xmas, so may repurpose that door sensor elsewhere and just have the light come on when the door unlocks or something.

[416to305]

Hey EricK thanks so much that worked amazing!  When I was saying before that my motion programs act just as fast as a scene, the hidden door sensors definitely don't.  It's not awful, since I mean if there's a 1-2 second delay it's not terrible because it takes that long to open the door and walk in, so usually still on anyway.  But this is instant now so definitely much better and great to know it is possible to make that 2 devices like that!

 

To anyone else wondering what happened, changing that mode changed the door sensor which normally shows On when closed, Off when open, into 2 devices "Door Open" and "Door Closed" each with an On or Off, allowing scenes to be triggered when open or closed.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Sounds like the hidden sensor works different than a TriggerLinc, when I change the mode they only send an on, never an off.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[416to305]

Oh weird yeah no this works in reverse, so if the door is closed, the "Door Open" device shows On and "Door Closed" shows Off.  If I close the door, they immediately flip, so "Door Open" changes to Off, and "Door Closed" changes to On.  

[Jimbo.Automates]

Thanks, I'm going to change one of mine and recheck.

[Jimbo.Automates]

Oh weird yeah no this works in reverse, so if the door is closed, the "Door Open" device shows On and "Door Closed" shows Off.  If I close the door, they immediately flip, so "Door Open" changes to Off, and "Door Closed" changes to On.  

 

I changed one to 2 scene mode, and it only sends a control on for the open (1) when opened and control on for closed (2) when closed.  Status never changes to off for either...   Guess I have to decide which is more important, seeing the devices in the door open scene, or fast turn on for the light...

Edited December 18, 2014 by Jimbo

[TheWabit]

One quick easy example of using scenes - I (and probably most others) have a scene with all of my lights. Programmed the ISY to "All Off" at midnight (or whatever time you choose).