Enphase M250 micro inverters and insteon

[johnstonsean]

I have a fairly extensive insteon implementation 40-45 switches, some dual band. I also have a couple x10 devices and some zwave. I'm also running an isy994 w/zwave of course. I am looking at doing a 25 panel solar install with Enphase M250 micro inverters. Does anyone have any experience with these inverters and insteon interference ? I have done some searching but found mixed information so I'm looking to see if anyone has some real world experience. Thanks in advance

 

 

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[Teken]

I would suggest you write into the Enphase vendor and confirm the power line frequency they use for the enlighten module.

 

I too have read mixed reviews and feed back.

 

 

 

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[Brian H]

Making sure it has a clean 60 cycle, pure sine wave AC output. Would be one of my questions to the vendor.

[Teken]

Making sure it has a clean 60 cycle, pure sine wave AC output. Would be one of my questions to the vendor.

Their micro inverters are one of the best in the world. They do indeed output a pure AC sine wave at 60 Hz.

 

It's the power line COM unit they use to transmit the solar data to the enlighten servers that he is worried about. Similar to power line Ethernet. Which to date I have never seen a problem using.

 

And I stream gigs of 1080 / 4K video all day and my Insteon network is fine.

 

 

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[johnstonsean]

Thanks for the input, Teken is correct on what I am worried about. I have a ticket open with Enphase for any information they have . Meanwhile if anyone does have any feedback please share and I will update this thread when I hear back from Enphase.

 

 

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[Teken]

Thanks for the input, Teken is correct on what I am worried about. I have a ticket open with Enphase for any information they have . Meanwhile if anyone does have any feedback please share and I will update this thread when I hear back from Enphase.

 

 

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You will need to be very specific when asking them what power line frequency they use for the enlighten module. This will help determine if there is going to be a over lap or related issues on the line.

 

Insteon uses 131.65 kHz, 

[johnstonsean]

I received a response from Enphase today, Emphase's PLC is at 144KHZ

 

"Hello Sean

When using more then one type of power line communications device in the same building there is always a risk of communications issues. The good news is that with proper design the Enphase system can be separated from everything else. Linked below is some documentation& the relevant pages to read for the design.

http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_Troubleshooting_Guide.pdf
Diagram on page 23

http://enphase.com/global/files/EnphaseCommDesignGuide_NorthAm_Jul-2014.pdf
Starting on page 9. Isolating Communication Domains

Essentially through either of these methods the goal is to separate the Enphase portion of your home electrical grid from everything else which will ensure proper communications for everything.

Thank You
Corey
Enphase Energy"

 

 

I read through his links and I think the best solution is in his second link and is to use an Enphase line communications filter(LCF), this a filter and an Envoy gateway in a NEMA enclosure designed for commercial environments that have multiple envoy gateways. However as long as the Enphase inverters are installed off a sub panel the LCF could be installed between the new sub panel and the main panel and effectively filter out all Enphase PLC from the rest of my equipment. I have an email off to my solar contractor to make sure they are comfortable with this. Here is a guide that lays out the install of it.

 

 

 

 

http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_Quick_Install_Guide_LCF.pdf  

 

 

 

[Toddimus]

I'm in the midst of a solar install right now with the Enphase microinverters.  I investigated this and other threads like this before pulling the trigger because I was worried about the same thing.  I have a pretty extensive Insteon/Z-Wave setup controlled by an ISY 994 so I preemptively opted for the LCF.  I'll report my results!  Fingers crossed...

[Teken]

How much is the LCF?

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[fryfrog]

I've got one of these with an extensive Insteon setup, using powerline networking to get it network. Finding a plug that worked was the hardest part, it was fine in the garage until I moved my server into that room and it stopped getting a signal. The only plug I could find that worked was in our front hallway, so it is tucked behind our shoe rack.

You might consider having the solar installers put a plug in a convenient place for it, wired as close to the panels as possible. I wish I'd done that, the run is *right* past my garage so I could have just had them pop it right in there.

[Toddimus]

Finally an update on my install...

 

The install went well and everything seems to play nicely together.  I haven't had any communications issues between the microinverters and Insteon stuff. 

I did opt for the "commercial" filtering solution to try to preemptively avoid any interference between the Enphase microinverters and the Insteon signals.  The "commercial" solution, which looks to be the same as the "LCF" above, consists of a weatherproof box that houses the Enphase Envoy communications module and some terminal blocks/breakers for the solar side of things.  I thought it would include some fancy electrical noise filtering devices (notch filters), but ultimately, the noise reduction is achieved by three ferrite rings that you string the incoming solar power feeds through.  In hindsight, I think just the three ferrite rings would be fine if they were installed in the house's main electrical panel.  I got the commercial box for "free", since I know some people in the business.  If it cost me a bunch extra, and I know what I know now, I'd just get three ferrites and leave it at that.  The ferrites (blue rings at the bottom right) are shown in the first photo in the pdf link below. 

 

The commercial box is:  Enphase EN-240

 

I ended up with 20 Solarworld 280W panels, each with an Enphase M250 microinverter.

 

I very, very rarely have communications issues with my Insteon gear.  I do occasionally (once a week or so) get a pop-up message that the ISY can't communicate with a device, but that happened before I got the solar system installed.  I would say that the microinverters have had no effect on my Insteon setup.  When I look at the communications log on the ISY, most of the time the messages come across with 2 retries left, which means to me that things are going well. 

 

@Teken, I don't know how much the LCF (or the thing I got) costs.  I'm assuming ~$500.

[Teken]

Finally an update on my install...

 

The install went well and everything seems to play nicely together.  I haven't had any communications issues between the microinverters and Insteon stuff. 

I did opt for the "commercial" filtering solution to try to preemptively avoid any interference between the Enphase microinverters and the Insteon signals.  The "commercial" solution, which looks to be the same as the "LCF" above, consists of a weatherproof box that houses the Enphase Envoy communications module and some terminal blocks/breakers for the solar side of things.  I thought it would include some fancy electrical noise filtering devices (notch filters), but ultimately, the noise reduction is achieved by three ferrite rings that you string the incoming solar power feeds through.  In hindsight, I think just the three ferrite rings would be fine if they were installed in the house's main electrical panel.  I got the commercial box for "free", since I know some people in the business.  If it cost me a bunch extra, and I know what I know now, I'd just get three ferrites and leave it at that.  The ferrites (blue rings at the bottom right) are shown in the first photo in the pdf link below. 

 

The commercial box is:  Enphase EN-240

 

I ended up with 20 Solarworld 280W panels, each with an Enphase M250 microinverter.

 

I very, very rarely have communications issues with my Insteon gear.  I do occasionally (once a week or so) get a pop-up message that the ISY can't communicate with a device, but that happened before I got the solar system installed.  I would say that the microinverters have had no effect on my Insteon setup.  When I look at the communications log on the ISY, most of the time the messages come across with 2 retries left, which means to me that things are going well. 

 

@Teken, I don't know how much the LCF (or the thing I got) costs.  I'm assuming ~$500.

 

First I have to personally thank you for taking the time to follow up. In all the years I have been a member in various forums its been a typical for people to come on and ask a question and then simply ghost out.

 

Thank You!

 

Back on topic: What is the blue box above the outlet in the photo? 

[Toddimus]

Teken,

 

No problem!  I had forgotten about this thread until yesterday when a guy sent me a PM to ask how it went.  I actually pasted much of my answer to him in this thread. 

 

The blue box is a surge suppressor for the socket that the Enphase Envoy box uses.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

No problem!  I had forgotten about this thread until yesterday when a guy sent me a PM to ask how it went.  I actually pasted much of my answer to him in this thread. 

 

The blue box is a surge suppressor for the socket that the Enphase Envoy box uses.

 

Outside of the Envoy I don't see $500.XX worth of parts in there. Not even the breakers and the terminal block that inputs the lines. You were lucky in not having to pay for the box - but in the big picture all that matters is that it works!

 

Its always interesting to see ferrite choke filters being used in noise abatement. I have been salvaging any I find from network, monitor, power supply cables for years.

 

They have saved my bacon over the years in many small to large projects where injected noise was present. Anytime you see the clamp on style instead of the donut make sure you grab them and just place them in your trouble shooting tool case! 

[Toddimus]

Outside of the Envoy I don't see $500.XX worth of parts in there. Not even the breakers and the terminal block that inputs the lines. You were lucky in not having to pay for the box - but in the big picture all that matters is that it works!

 

Its always interesting to see ferrite choke filters being used in noise abatement. I have been salvaging any I find from network, monitor, power supply cables for years.

 

They have saved my bacon over the years in many small to large projects where injected noise was present. Anytime you see the clamp on style instead of the donut make sure you grab them and just place them in your trouble shooting tool case! 

 

I have a couple of them in my kit for sure!  The best performance seems to be when you actually loop the wires around the magnet once, so the bundle actually passes through the center twice.  Those clamp on style versions can make that tricky if they aren't big enough.  The ones for the Enphase kit are solid rings, which might have better performance since they are a contiguous solid ring, rather than the two halves of the clamp on style. 

 

Either type usually works pretty well, when you need it to.

[jerlands]

I very, very rarely have communications issues with my Insteon gear.  I do occasionally (once a week or so) get a pop-up message that the ISY can't communicate with a device, but that happened before I got the solar system installed.  I would say that the microinverters have had no effect on my Insteon setup.  When I look at the communications log on the ISY, most of the time the messages come across with 2 retries left, which means to me that things are going well. 

 

 

Thanks for the update!  I have interest in the microinverters and was curious on their impact on Insteon comms.

 

 

Jon...

[Michel Kohanim]

Toddimus,

 

I am interested as well. Do you know whether or not they can be communicated with?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[IanSmith]

My installers (PetersenDean/Solar4America) installed an outlet on the inside of my garage wall, right behind my electrical panel and labelled it Envoy. I am still waiting for the Envoy to be installed -- they gave me a 4 week estimate.

 

Looking at the Envoy's API specs and ISY's developer site API client library, this looks like a slam dunk. 

 

Am I wrong?

[Toddimus]

Michel,

Yes, they have an API. I have (had) a setup using openHAB that accesses the data. I would love to have the info in the ISY world to use in programming.

 

A polyglot node server or one of io_guy's nodelink programs or even Jimbo's ISYHelper implementations would be awesome. I haven't asked for their help because I figured there wouldn't be many users. I was waiting for the openHAB binding for the ISY to get hashed out to bring data from the Envoy into ISY variables.

 

If anyone wants to tackle the project, I'd be happy to help. I'm not very fluent in Java or Python programming. I know LabVIEW really well so I know what can/needs to be done, I just don't have the necessary skills to do it in the right language.

 

In theory, I would think it should be pretty "easy" for someone who already has a node server platform setup.

 

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[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Toddimus,

 

Thanks so very much. We'll definitely look into it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MikeD]

I received a response from Enphase today, Emphase's PLC is at 144KHZ

 

"Hello Sean

When using more then one type of power line communications device in the same building there is always a risk of communications issues. The good news is that with proper design the Enphase system can be separated from everything else. Linked below is some documentation& the relevant pages to read for the design.http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_Troubleshooting_Guide.pdf

Diagram on page 23http://enphase.com/global/files/EnphaseCommDesignGuide_NorthAm_Jul-2014.pdf

Starting on page 9. Isolating Communication Domains

Essentially through either of these methods the goal is to separate the Enphase portion of your home electrical grid from everything else which will ensure proper communications for everything.

Thank You

Corey

Enphase Energy"

 

 

I read through his links and I think the best solution is in his second link and is to use an Enphase line communications filter(LCF), this a filter and an Envoy gateway in a NEMA enclosure designed for commercial environments that have multiple envoy gateways. However as long as the Enphase inverters are installed off a sub panel the LCF could be installed between the new sub panel and the main panel and effectively filter out all Enphase PLC from the rest of my equipment. I have an email off to my solar contractor to make sure they are comfortable with this. Here is a guide that lays out the install of it.

 

http://enphase.com/global/files/Enphase_Quick_Install_Guide_LCF.pdf  

Thank you for posting, I found this information very helpful. We energized our PV solar system powered with Enphase M250 microinverters about a month ago. Our installers used this AC Combiner Box https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/AC-Combiner-Box-DS-EN-NA.pdf and installed the recommended in-line ferrites listed in the Enphase troubleshooting guide you linked to. I am happy to report the performance of my Insteon system has not been affected by the solar installation and the Enphase microinverters are communicating with the Enphase Envoy gateway without issue.

~Mike