Strange Com Problem

[pkeberly]

Hello all, I had another PLM die on me sometime this weekend.  I got a replacement today, followed the Wiki instruction, but the restore appeared to fail?  All still had a little green arrow after the restore finished.

I poked around a bit, and it looked like my ISY couldn't find the PLM? 

 

I swapped out serial cables, did a factory reset on the PLM, nothing.  It took several power cycles to get the ISY (994i Pro) to recognize the new PLM?  Once I got a connection, I did another PLM restore, and it seemed to update about 45 of our 53 devices.  I did a write updates to the few devices with the red exclamation and they all appeared to update fine with no com issues.

 

Great, so I flipped on a few devices to test, and they don't seem to communicate?  They're close to the PLM (15 feet or so) but I don't see any traffic on the event viewer?  I can command them off/on with admin console, and I see traffic then, but I don't receive event traffic from the devices, and they don't behave properly.  I did a factory reset/restore on two that should act together and they now work, but they're in a scene so they don't need the ISY, correct?

 

Our guest bath has 5 devices that control fan, lights, and towel heater through the ISY.  I did a restore on the whole group, but no dice.  If I operate the light switches, no traffic and no action on the fan.  If I toggle the light from the admin console, the light AND fan respond like they should?  Now I'm stumped.  And worse, the wife less than impressed.

 

To me it feels like the ISY talks fine, but can't hear?

Is it possible that the failed PLM took out the Rx in the ISY, or could I have another defective PLM? 

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Paul

[Teken]

Hello all, I had another PLM die on me sometime this weekend.  I got a replacement today, followed the Wiki instruction, but the restore appeared to fail?  All still had a little green arrow after the restore finished.

I poked around a bit, and it looked like my ISY couldn't find the PLM? 

 

I swapped out serial cables, did a factory reset on the PLM, nothing.  It took several power cycles to get the ISY (994i Pro) to recognize the new PLM?  Once I got a connection, I did another PLM restore, and it seemed to update about 45 of our 53 devices.  I did a write updates to the few devices with the red exclamation and they all appeared to update fine with no com issues.

 

Great, so I flipped on a few devices to test, and they don't seem to communicate?  They're close to the PLM (15 feet or so) but I don't see any traffic on the event viewer?  I can command them off/on with admin console, and I see traffic then, but I don't receive event traffic from the devices, and they don't behave properly.  I did a factory reset/restore on two that should act together and they now work, but they're in a scene so they don't need the ISY, correct?

 

Our guest bath has 5 devices that control fan, lights, and towel heater through the ISY.  I did a restore on the whole group, but no dice.  If I operate the light switches, no traffic and no action on the fan.  If I toggle the light from the admin console, the light AND fan respond like they should?  Now I'm stumped.  And worse, the wife less than impressed.

 

To me it feels like the ISY talks fine, but can't hear?

Is it possible that the failed PLM took out the Rx in the ISY, or could I have another defective PLM? 

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Paul

 

 

Hello Paul,

 

Some basics in case they were over looked during this stressful time.

 

1. The PLM must always be plugged in first while the ISY left unpowered.

2. After waiting about 10 seconds, plug in the ISY Series Controller.

3. Select restore PLM.

4. Battery operated devices with the 1010 must be updated one at a time.

 

5. Sometimes a device(s) may need you to right click on that specific node and select *Update Insteon Engine*

6. You should always reboot the ISY once the above is completed.

[pkeberly]

 

1. The PLM must always be plugged in first while the ISY left unpowered.

2. After waiting about 10 seconds, plug in the ISY Series Controller.

3. Select restore PLM.

4. Battery operated devices with the 1010 must be updated one at a time.

 

5. Sometimes a device(s) may need you to right click on that specific node and select *Update Insteon Engine*

6. You should always reboot the ISY once the above is completed.

 

Thanks Teken

 

1.  I did that. I saw the wiki note that ISY only reads the PLM address at power up.

2.  Is that power up the ISY, or connect the serial to the ISY.  I beleive the PLM wiki used the term "plug in" for both action, I found it confusing.

3. done

4. none

5. When doing a device restore, I did see a message about calibrating & Insteon engine?   I'll try the right click tonight.

6. I didn't do that.  I'll give it a try tonight.

 

My guess is that none of those would stop Rx traffic, your thoughts?

 

Paul

[Teken]

Thanks Teken

 

1. I did that. I saw the wiki note that ISY only reads the PLM address at power up.

2. Is that power up the ISY, or connect the serial to the ISY. I beleive the PLM wiki used the term "plug in" for both action, I found it confusing.

3. done

4. none

5. When doing a device restore, I did see a message about calibrating & Insteon engine? I'll try the right click tonight.

6. I didn't do that. I'll give it a try tonight.

 

My guess is that none of those would stop Rx traffic, your thoughts?

 

Paul

Hello Paul,

 

Please ensure the following basics are in place.

 

1. PLM is not plugged into any surge, UPS, or sharing a circuit with computers or electronic devices.

 

2. Confirm proper coupling / bridging of the Insteon network via the 4 tap (beacon) test outlined by the full users manual of the PLM.

 

3. Remove power to the ISY as part of the PLM restore process indicated above.

 

Please confirm 1&2 first because this will impact your ability to complete this task.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pkeberly]

Some basics in case they were over looked during this stressful time.

....

5. Sometimes a device(s) may need you to right click on that specific node and select *Update Insteon Engine*

6. You should always reboot the ISY once the above is completed.

 

Please ensure the following basics are in place.

 

1. PLM is not plugged into any surge, UPS, or sharing a circuit with computers or electronic devices.

 

2. Confirm proper coupling / bridging of the Insteon network via the 4 tap (beacon) test outlined by the full users manual of the PLM.

 

3. Remove power to the ISY as part of the PLM restore process indicated above.

 

Please confirm 1&2 first because this will impact your ability to complete this task.

 

 

Thanks Teken, I tried steps 5 & 6 from your first list.

 

5. There is no "Update Insteon Engine"  in the right click menu, the closest I could find was Diagnostics->Query Insteon Engine.

6. no difference, still no status messages unless the ISY sends them.

 

From your new list;

 

1.  It is on a circuit that powers all of my audio/video gear.  I know that can be an issue, but again, it's not spotty at all on transmit.

I get nothing, not one single message back, from any of the devices.

What's the range on RF?  I have at least 3 devices within 15 feet of the PLM

 

2. It looks like I have a mixture of phases, however none of them will generate an event.  Is it only the dual band devices that have the tap test feature?

 

3. Did a full power cycle of both the PLM and ISY.  It did spend a bit of time writing updates after the restart, but still no Rx messages.

 

Is there a way to test the PLM using the provided serial cable and a serial port on a PC?

 

 

Paul

 

[pkeberly]

While I was typing my reply, my outdoor lights program popped this up:

I have a snip from the event viewer, but a forum error said I'm not allowed to post pics?

Any clues?

Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [        Time] 17:26:15 0(0)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [        Time] 17:26:15 0(0)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [        Time] 17:26:16 0(0)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [VAR  2    2 ]       1
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 1D BB 99 0F 11 4C
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 1D.BB.99 0F 11 4C 06          LTONRR (4C)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [VAR  2   11 ]       1
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.BB.99 33.60.36 2F 11 4C    LTONRR (4C)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 1D.BB.99-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.BB.99 33.60.36 23 11 4C    LTONRR (4C)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 1D.BB.99-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:17 PM : [iNST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 25 3C 5D 0F 11 33
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [VAR  2    3 ]       1
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 25.3C.5D 0F 11 33 06          LTONRR (33)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 25.3C.5D 33.60.36 2F 11 33    LTONRR (33)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 25.3C.5D-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 15 CF 11 00
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.15 CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [25 3C 5D 1] [sT] [51] uom=0 prec=-1
Thu 01/22/2015 05:26:18 PM : [  25 3C 5D 1]       ST  51
 

Paul

[Teken]

Hello Paul,

 

1. When you can turn something on, but not off this typically means its the load that is giving you an issue. This can also be caused by noise makers / signal suckers. I would humbly ask you to unplug all the A/V gear as a test and try again.

 

2. Yes, only the dual band devices will Ack a response when the 4 tap test is initiated. Please kindly note some dual band device can not initiate the 4 tap (beacon) test but will respond. Its best to do this from the PLM and let us know what you observe.

 

5. You're correct, I was going off memory this is the option you should select.

 

==============

 

Moving forward you have two issues here and that is removing any noise makers / signal suckers from the PLM line. This should be done around the house as painful as it is. Once you have proven it works, simply add one device back at a time and see how COMs are, or drop off.

 

You absolutely need to confirm coupling / bridging of the Insteon network.

 

As noted all the bridging in the world will not resolve a noise issue on the split single phase electrical system. You need to either filter them, remove them, or replace them. 

[pkeberly]

Hello Paul,

 

1. When you can turn something on, but not off this typically means its the load that is giving you an issue. This can also be caused by noise makers / signal suckers. I would humbly ask you to unplug all the A/V gear as a test and try again.

 

2. Yes, only the dual band devices will Ack a response when the 4 tap test is initiated. Please kindly note some dual band device can not initiate the 4 tap (beacon) test but will respond. Its best to do this from the PLM and let us know what you observe.

 

5. You're correct, I was going off memory this is the option you should select.

 

==============

 

Moving forward you have two issues here and that is removing any noise makers / signal suckers from the PLM line. This should be done around the house as painful as it is. Once you have proven it works, simply add one device back at a time and see how COMs are, or drop off.

 

You absolutely need to confirm coupling / bridging of the Insteon network.

 

As noted all the bridging in the world will not resolve a noise issue on the split single phase electrical system. You need to either filter them, remove them, or replace them. 

 

 

1. I might not have explained that clearly, I can command deviced on AND off from the admin console.  When I physically toggle a device, the ISY does not see any event traffic.

 

2. I tapped the PLM, I have a mixture of flashing green, and nonflashing devices. 

 

I used a terminal program to monitor the serial output of the PLM during device events, I didn't see anything, but it might be smarter than that.

I downloaded House Linc, it says "no computer interface found"  I'm not sure if it can't find COM1, or it can't find the PLM.?

 

I'll remove the A/V stuf and report back.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[LeeG]

HouseLinc is not configured to work with the v.9E PLM.

 

Have you tried running a Restore Device for a single device to see if that restores comm from that device.

[pkeberly]

It's not a good time to take down the A/V stuff, if you know what I mean.

 

So I built up a 15' extension cord with a duplex outlet for the PLM, and a 2477S for events. 

The cord attached device is the only device that will show events.  I tried a few differnt outlet, same results.

 

What does that say? 

In my mind, it verifies the Rx connection of the ISY/PLM. 

 

I did another 4 tap test, the attached 2477S blinks red, as does one other device, and I get a few that blink green.

Some don't blink, some sort of wigggle white. 

Does the 4 tap test show which devices are within RF range of the PLM?

 

 

Now I'm really lost. 

[Teken]

It's not a good time to take down the A/V stuff, if you know what I mean.

 

So I built up a 15' extension cord with a duplex outlet for the PLM, and a 2477S for events. 

The cord attached device is the only device that will show events.  I tried a few differnt outlet, same results.

 

What does that say? 

In my mind, it verifies the Rx connection of the ISY/PLM. 

 

I did another 4 tap test, the attached 2477S blinks red, as does one other device, and I get a few that blink green.

Some don't blink, some sort of wigggle white. 

Does the 4 tap test show which devices are within RF range of the PLM?

 

 

Now I'm really lost. 

 

If using the an extension cord to attach the PLM on to another circuit and things are fine. You now know the room the PLM is under has lots of noise.

 

Your choices are to filter the gear in that room, move the PLM and use a longer Ethernet cable, remove the noise pollution gear, or replace it.

 

If the 2477S blinks red it means its on the same phase or side as the PLM. You will see red in most homes because about half the house should be on 1 vs 2 of the electrical panel.

 

This leads me to believe your main issue, is noise . . .

[pkeberly]

HouseLinc is not configured to work with the v.9E PLM.

 

Have you tried running a Restore Device for a single device to see if that restores comm from that device.

 

My new PLM (2413S) says V2.0 on the case, Admin PLM info says v9E?  (1444 date code)

ISY firmware: 4.2.18

 

I did a restore on a pair that control stair lights, (top/bottom)  They talk together correctly, but they're in a scene. 

The ISY does not see any traffic from those events. I can control them from Admin, but no RX.

 

I think I verified all of the hardware, since I have one working device.  That leaves...I dunno?

 

One thing I noticed; is when I power cycles the ISY/PLM combo, it spends about a minute doing something?  (system busy)  I don't recall that as normal.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[Teken]

One thing I noticed; is when I power cycles the ISY/PLM combo, it spends about a minute doing something?  (system busy)  I don't recall that as normal.

 

Thanks,

Paul

 

That is normal its part of the POST process. Its basically checking for all its hands and feet. Verifying network settings etc along with updating the current status of each Insteon device in the network.

 

If you have lots of programs sometimes it can be several minutes before the busy stops showing up. This is also impacted by using lots of load on start up programs.

[LeeG]

Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table.  How many links are in PLM?

[pkeberly]

If using the an extension cord to attach the PLM on to another circuit and things are fine. You now know the room the PLM is under has lots of noise.

 

Your choices are to filter the gear in that room, move the PLM and use a longer Ethernet cable, remove the noise pollution gear, or replace it.

 

If the 2477S blinks red it means its on the same phase or side as the PLM. You will see red in most homes because about half the house should be on 1 vs 2 of the electrical panel.

 

This leads me to believe your main issue, is noise . . .

 

Thanks Teken, I know what you're saying, and I'm sure you know way more than me, but I find it hard to beleive my whole system get's knocked out by noise, at exactly the same time my PLM fails?

 

I've had this system going for close to 3 years now, and I'd have to say that it's worked fairly well.  I'd miss a few events here and there, but it was a very nice setup.

THEN my PLM died, and none of my automation worked.  My really cool remote bath fans are idle, our porches are dark, my cool fast tap tricks are dead, (and wife isn't happy, but I have my ways)

 

I get a new PLM, and not one device is the house will talk to my ISY, not one.  The talk to each other, yet ignore my ISY.

 

It first appeared that the PLM couldn't talk serial, OR the ISY can't hear serial (more likely). But I've shown the PLM->ISY connection is valid talking a device on a cord, a new device.

Adding that new device is another varaible that confounds the hunt...

 

So I did a factory reset on an installed device that was close, ~12 feet.  (BTW, one that did not blink during 4 tap). 

I deleted it from the ISY, relinked, and now it talks!!!  Although it seems like a lot of traffic for just a switch ON event, it does talk. There are two ignored messages in the group?

 

So, I think I have a screwed up device list.  Any hints?

Also, how do I post a screen grab of the event viewer?

 

Thanks again,

 

Paul

[pkeberly]

Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table.  How many links are in PLM?

 

 

It shows 49 links.  I think I counted 52 or 53 devices in the Admin list.

[Teken]

Thanks Teken, I know what you're saying, and I'm sure you know way more than me, but I find it hard to beleive my whole system get's knocked out by noise, at exactly the same time my PLM fails?

 

I've had this system going for close to 3 years now, and I'd have to say that it's worked fairly well.  I'd miss a few events here and there, but it was a very nice setup.

THEN my PLM died, and none of my automation worked.  My really cool remote bath fans are idle, our porches are dark, my cool fast tap tricks are dead, (and wife isn't happy, but I have my ways)

 

I get a new PLM, and not one device is the house will talk to my ISY, not one.  The talk to each other, yet ignore my ISY.

 

It first appeared that the PLM couldn't talk serial, OR the ISY can't hear serial (more likely). But I've shown the PLM->ISY connection is valid talking a device on a cord, a new device.

Adding that new device is another varaible that confounds the hunt...

 

So I did a factory reset on an installed device that was close, ~12 feet.  (BTW, one that did not blink during 4 tap). 

I deleted it from the ISY, relinked, and now it talks!!!  Although it seems like a lot of traffic for just a switch ON event, it does talk. There are two ignored messages in the group?

 

So, I think I have a screwed up device list.  Any hints?

Also, how do I post a screen grab of the event viewer?

 

Thanks again,

 

Paul

 

It sounds like the PLM restore was not fully successful. 

 

I would Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table.  How many links are in PLM??

It shows 49 links.  I think I counted 52 or 53 devices in the Admin list.

 

How many devices do you actually have in the home?

Yeah do the restore again there are tons of links missing.

[LeeG]

Also, how do I post a screen grab of the event viewer?

 

There is a Copy to Clipboard Icon at the bottom of the event viewer display, near the right edge.  Copy to clipboard and paste into forum.

[LeeG]

The Restore Modem (PLM) is not restoring all the PLM links.   Is it possible a Delete Modem (PLM) was issued during the process of replacing the PLM.

[pkeberly]

 

Have you tried running a Restore Device for a single device to see if that restores comm from that device.

 

 

I did a restore, no events, but it does talk to other.

 

Factory reset, re-linked, but no events.

 

Delete from ISY, re-link, have events now.

 

Paul

[Teken]

Its up to you to follow one of several paths: Hard reset the PLM, perform a restore PLM following the previous steps about cycling power.

 

That is one path to follow now . . .

[pkeberly]

The Restore Modem (PLM) is not restoring all the PLM links.   Is it possible a Delete Modem (PLM) was issued during the process of replacing the PLM.

 

 

I did not do a delete modem, I've screwed myself in the past.. 

This time I followed the wiki instructions.

 

Although the restore DID fail the first time I tried.

[pkeberly]

Its up to you to follow one of several paths: Hard reset the PLM, perform a restore PLM following the previous steps about cycling power.

 

That is one path to follow now . . .

 

Did a PLM restore, power cyce, still no events.

Hard reset, PLM restore, power cycle, no dice.

 

The only devices that register event to the ISY are the 2 that I reset & re-linked (and the new one on the cord).

 

I checked the device link table in a non-resposive device, and it has one entry of PLM for the addr.  The working devices have it in there twice?

 

I tried right click->advanced->PLM communications.  That only works for the 3 "good" devices.  The rest say "This device does not support PLM communication settings"

 

What did I screw up?

[LeeG]

If deleting a device and adding it back resolves the issue (and Restore Device does not) the solution is delete the devices and add them back.  

 

The "device does not support PLM settings" is expected for non I2CS devices.  

[Teken]

Did a PLM restore, power cyce, still no events.

Hard reset, PLM restore, power cycle, no dice.

 

The only devices that register event to the ISY are the 2 that I reset & re-linked (and the new one on the cord).

 

I checked the device link table in a non-resposive device, and it has one entry of PLM for the addr.  The working devices have it in there twice?

 

I tried right click->advanced->PLM communications.  That only works for the 3 "good" devices.  The rest say "This device does not support PLM communication settings"

 

What did I screw up?

 

Yeah, I believe you might be walking the path what LeeG has suggested and starting from scratch. This won't be so painful as you have a good back up to restore, correct?