Lights flashing on Generator - I'm stumped

[ergodic]

I'm posting this in case anyone has seen this behavior - it has me baffled.

 

I have an Insteon-only system with about 100+ controllers. It all works fine on mains power and no comm issues. I also have a whole-house 20KW Generac for when the power goes out. Which it did on Friday.

 

When the generator was running, the lights on the Insteon controllers would flash off for a split-second, and then back on. Sometimes once, often two or three times in rapid succession. They will occasionally do it on their own, but I can make it happen about 75% of the time by toggling any of the controllers off or on (whether that controller is for that light or not.)

 

Now I watched the Generac power with a DVM, a digital scope and a spectrum analyzer. Absolutely nothing is going on with the AC when this happens. Voltage stays rock-steady with freq. from 59.5Hz to 60.2Hz . The generator is supposed to be pure sine wave, and indeed there seem to be very little 60Hz harmonic and almost no energy at all in the 100KHz and up area where the Insteon signalling would be. There is a tiny spike about halfway up the waveform (about 2V), but I also see that same thing when on mains power, so it's a bit of backfeed from something in the house or whatever.

 

So I'm left with -- it has to be the controllers or the signalling or something that is only happening when the generator is active. But what?

 

The network equipment and ISY are on a UPS to avoid power loss during the generator transfer switchover, which takes about 15 sec. It seems to be working perfectly fine - the battery is only about 1yr old and it self-tests fine. But since it's the only difference I can think of I've ordered a replacement anyway.

 

I'm just wondering if anyone has run across anything like this??

[Teken]

How old are some of the Insteon devices in your home? I ask because several updates in the power supply and how its regulated has changed in various iterations of KPL, Switches, etc.

 

Older KPL would pulse on / off in a continuous cycle for about 10-30 seconds when mains power was brought back on line. 

[Cormacs]

Mine does the same. I live in a rural area and my power fails quite often and I use a 9000 watt generator for the essentials. I too noticed insteon dimmers flash when on back-up power, especially during the ramp up and ramp down. I never thought much of it because it isn't a huge issue the short time we are on back-up power. All my insteon equipment is new within the last two years.

[Teken]

Mine does the same. I live in a rural area and my power fails quite often and I use a 9000 watt generator for the essentials. I too noticed insteon dimmers flash when on back-up power, especially during the ramp up and ramp down. I never thought much of it because it isn't a huge issue the short time we are on back-up power. All my insteon equipment is new within the last two years.

 

To be more specific are you indicating the lights *flicker* or actually turn on / off?

[Cormacs]

with mine its so quick it's impossible to tell if they turn right off. But I mainly notice it on the ramp up and down. It isn't a smooth ramp. as it's ramping it flickers up and down as its ramping. All of my ramp rates are the 2 second ramp rate so it's pretty easy to see it flicker during the ramp.

[Teken]

with mine its so quick it's impossible to tell if they turn right off. But I mainly notice it on the ramp up and down. It isn't a smooth ramp. as it's ramping it flickers up and down as its ramping. All of my ramp rates are the 2 second ramp rate so it's pretty easy to see it flicker during the ramp.

 

What kind of loads are in the switches: CFL, LED, Halogen, Florescent, Incandescent

[Cormacs]

They are all LED's and I think that may be part of the problem as well. Because with the LED's even on good power they flicker a little with insteon traffic.

[Teken]

They are all LED's and I think that may be part of the problem as well. Because with the LED's even on good power they flicker a little with insteon traffic.

 

Yes, I am not too surprised by your reply as to the load. Back in the day when everyone was using incandescent bulbs this sort of *visual* indicator would be hard to see as the bulb would simply go brighter / dimmer with voltage rise / fall. With LED bulbs by their vary nature they are able to turn on / off very quickly even if this action is mimic from a standby generator.

 

This sort of flicker, strobing, or pulsing can vary with different bulbs brands and makers. This variance can be seen even with in the same model bulb.

 

This is why I always buy a few different brands and test them out to see how they operate with various switches and power events.

 

Afterwards, I buy the same bulbs in bulk and hope they are using all the same spec tolerant parts with in. I've had great success with one brand but the name escapes me now. 

[Cormacs]

All of my LEDs work well with regular power so I'm not too concerned. The minor flicker with insteon traffic isn't huge either because we have a small house and there isn't that much traffic.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EricK]

We've been on our generac 36kw just a few times, short duration. Have not noticed any flickering. Is your plm on the battery back up?

[Teken]

We've been on our generac 36kw just a few times, short duration. Have not noticed any flickering. Is your plm on the battery back up?

 

He indicated above that the ISY and network are on a dedicated UPS. But, no mention of the PLM being on it so have to gather its on the mains. Afterwards the generator kicks in and the PLM is on the back up power.

[EricK]

He indicated above that the ISY and network are on a dedicated UPS. But, no mention of the PLM being on it so have to gather its on the mains. Afterwards the generator kicks in and the PLM is on the back up power.

Teken, just curious because I have my isy on a ups, but not the plm. The plm is on a generator backup circuit. Insteon teaching is to not put a plm on any type of surge suppressor. Eric

[Teken]

Teken, just curious because I have my isy on a ups, but not the plm. The plm is on a generator backup circuit. Insteon teaching is to not put a plm on any type of surge suppressor. Eric

 

Yes, for the most part this is true for 90% of the folks using Insteon. There have been a few people using a Filter Linc and a UPS to force the PLM to send via RF only. This was done because they could not figure out why Insteon COM's were so poor. When they did this kludge their Insteon network became more stable and reliable.

 

I see that as a good solution for this specific instance.

 

But, in no way is better than trying to figure out what are the noise makers / signal suckers. Using the above method is a band aid and assumes the RF prorogation will be strong enough over the long term. As an aside this is why we are seeing *new* Insteon devices with increased RF output.

 

They have learnt the original design was too low and have since increased the output for the latest hardware: HUB II, Dual Outlet Linc, Range Extender, etc.

 

I expect to see the next rounds of Insteon devices to do the same because it only makes sense and will finally solve one of two RF issues I've had and others as well.

 

The other issue they need to address is to move the RF antenna on all the switches to the front. They are currently in the back of the housing and if you're using a metal JBOX the RF signal is reduced up to 80%. 

[MikeD]

Yes, for the most part this is true for 90% of the folks using Insteon. There have been a few people using a Filter Linc and a UPS to force the PLM to send via RF only. This was done because they could not figure out why Insteon COM's were so poor. When they did this kludge their Insteon network became more stable and reliable

I have my PLM and ISY behind a UPS and FilterLinc however this was not done because I had issues with COMs. I did this in order to eliminate the possibility of power sags/surges/spikes/brown-outs from damaging the PLM since it is such a critical piece of the system. Been configured this way since I read about PLM failures here on the forum, probably a good 18 months. Now I know the PLM failures were due to faulty capacitors and not utility issues. My system is working without issues so I am reluctant to move the PLM off the UPS!

 

~Mike

[ergodic]

Teken:

 

It is about 50/50, new vs. old devices. But the problem happens on both the older and newer DB controllers.

 

All the lighting loads are halogen incandescent.

 

This is definitely not a "flicker", and it isn't limited to just to the initial switchover. It continues as long as it's on the generator. I guess I would term it a "flash off". Maybe about 1/4 second off, then back on. Sometimes one flash, sometimes 2 or 3 in fairly close succession. It is peculiar (to say the least).

 

I used to have the PLM on the UPS But as I've replaced controllers with the newer DB units, the performance seems good either way, so it's been cabled over at the panel. I did move it back on to the UPS for testing while the generator was running and it made no difference.

 

I'm going to replace the UPS tomorrow since it's the only thing I can see that's different between utility and generator power. The generator output is just as clean as utility power. (There is a minor and expected frequency wobble when on the generator of about .5hz, but no reason that should matter.)

[Teken]

Teken:

 

It is about 50/50, new vs. old devices. But the problem happens on both the older and newer DB controllers.

 

All the lighting loads are halogen incandescent.

 

This is definitely not a "flicker", and it isn't limited to just to the initial switchover. It continues as long as it's on the generator. I guess I would term it a "flash off". Maybe about 1/4 second off, then back on. Sometimes one flash, sometimes 2 or 3 in fairly close succession. It is peculiar (to say the least).

 

I used to have the PLM on the UPS But as I've replaced controllers with the newer DB units, the performance seems good either way, so it's been cabled over at the panel. I did move it back on to the UPS for testing while the generator was running and it made no difference.

 

I'm going to replace the UPS tomorrow since it's the only thing I can see that's different between utility and generator power. The generator output is just as clean as utility power. (There is a minor and expected frequency wobble when on the generator of about .5hz, but no reason that should matter.)

 

I recall there is an adjustment on the generator which allows the RPM's to be fined tuned. Perhaps engage Generac tech support and inquire what kind of fine tuning can be made on the unit. Also, on a off chance would it be possible for you to switch out one of the Insteon switches back to a normal switch?

 

I would like to know if you observe the same behavior on the same set of lights. Watch carefully for pulsing (dim / bright) while on the geny.