Scene Status

[mcrean]

Is there a way, or can there be an enhancement in a future update to make the status of a scene part of a program? I want a command received via X10 to hold a 'scene on' status until another X10 is received.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello mcrean,

 

Yes, it is possible but the main problem is that we have yet to figure out what constitutes a scene status.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

Is there a way, or can there be an enhancement in a future update to make the status of a scene part of a program? I want a command received via X10 to hold a 'scene on' status until another X10 is received.

[mcrean]

IMO, I would think it is a scene that is explicitly turned on by a control or iSY.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello mcrean,

 

You are correct but this topic has been one of the most discussed feature requests ever! If you feel like it, you can go through our discussion here (start at page 3): http://forum.universal-devices.com/view ... 0835#10835

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

IMO, I would think it is a scene that is explicitly turned on by a control or iSY.

[jhimmel]

I looked through that thread and there are a few topics being discussed.

However, this seems simple to me.

If all the parts of a scene are true, then the scene is on - regardless of how it got there. If ANY part of the scene is not true, the scene is off. It would be silly to consider a scene ON (or "true") if one of the components is not where it is intended to be. Likewise, it should matter not -how- all of the elements of a scene got to be where they are - as long as they are where they are supposed to be, the scene is "true" - even if it is a subset of another scene.

 

I handle logic on some of my Keypadlincs this way also. If I press the Keypadlinc button, the button illuminates and sets the scene. If any of the devices are changed after that, the button is changed to OFF (scene no longer true). If all of the components of the scene happen to get into place by manual operation, my logic detects this and turns the Keypadlinc button ON (scene is now true). Any light that is not part of the scene is ignored by the logic. Anything I don't want to be ignored should be part of the scene.

 

If other people have a different idea (I don't doubt that they do), maybe options could be put into place for scene status reporting.

 

For instance -

Option1 - Scene status is ON whenever all members of scene are correct.

Option2 - Scene status is ON only when activated by a scene controller or ISY.

Option3 - whatever else someone can think of.

 

These could even be part of each scene options so that people could use a different option for different scenes.

 

Jim H.

[upstatemike]

Was there a reason why scenes have to be limited to 2 states (on or off)?

 

What if there were 4 states for a scene?

 

SET = all devices are at the exact levels defined by the scene.

CLEAR = a scene in any other condition besides SET.

ON = Any device in the scene is on.

OFF = All devices in the scene are off.

 

You could then have the choice to decide if you want your keypad lights to go on only when a scene is "SET" or any time the scene is "ON". You could turn them off as soon as the scene is "CLEAR" or only after the scene is "OFF".

 

This would require 2 registers/variables but wouldn't it solve the debate once and for all?

[Algorithm]

Was there a reason why scenes have to be limited to 2 states (on or off)?

 

What if there were 4 states for a scene?

 

SET = all devices are at the exact levels defined by the scene.

CLEAR = a scene in any other condition besides SET.

ON = Any device in the scene is on.

OFF = All devices in the scene are off.

 

You could then have the choice to decide if you want your keypad lights to go on only when a scene is "SET" or any time the scene is "ON". You could turn them off as soon as the scene is "CLEAR" or only after the scene is "OFF".

Mike,

 

I proposed this concept some time back, using somewhat different terminology.

 

My idea was that the scene is on (true) when all devices were at the exact defined levels (regardless of how they got there), and off (false) otherwise. And, that the group is on (true) when any device in the group is not off, or off (false) when all devices in the group are off.

 

The reason for this terminology is because a scene may have more than one controller, and the defined levels may be different for each controller. They are technically different scenes, but they still represent only a single group, since all the controllers are in the same ISY-defined scene.

 

This would require 2 registers/variables but wouldn't it solve the debate once and for all?

Unfortunately, I don't think it would end the debate , as there have been other proposals as well.

 

One such proposal is that if all of the devices defined in a scene are at a level different from the defined level, but all by exactly the same amount (eg. all at 75% of the defined level), then the scene is still considered on. My thought is that the scene could be tested for on, off, or any particular level, just like a device. But a group would still be only a binary value (every device off, or not).

 

If implementing a scene's level would be so difficult as to cause a delay, then I would still like to see binary value scenes/groups as defined above, implemented sooner... the scene levels could always come later.

[upstatemike]

I have a problem with the whole concept of dimming a scene because it is too hard to define. What if a scene has one device that is normally at 20% when the scene is activated and a second device that is at 100% and then you dim the scene by 50%? The second device is clearly now at 50% but what about the first device? Is it now at 10% (50% 0f 20%)? or is it at 0% (50% of full subtracted from 20%)?

 

If it is at 0% do you track it as logically being minus 30% so you can keep the ratio in tact to determine if the scene is still true?

 

This feels like a very complex feature with very limited practical application.

[Algorithm]

I have a problem with the whole concept of dimming a scene because it is too hard to define... This feels like a very complex feature with very limited practical application.

Concur. I would like to see the boolean values for scene and group implemented as soon as possible, so that we have something to work with. Variations can then be discussed at leisure.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Darrell,

 

Please do be kind enough to create a enhancement request in our bugzilla.

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

 

I have a problem with the whole concept of dimming a scene because it is too hard to define... This feels like a very complex feature with very limited practical application.

Concur. I would like to see the boolean values for scene and group implemented as soon as possible, so that we have something to work with. Variations can then be discussed at leisure.

[Algorithm]

Hi Darrell,

 

Please do be kind enough to create a enhancement request in our bugzilla.

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

Done!

[jhimmel]

Great.

 

For the record, I am on board with both Mike and Darrell, as either of their ideas would provide me with a simple true/not-true status of my scenes - just like my suggestion of options rather than multiple concurrent Boolean. ANY of these will work for me.

 

I also agree that these methods should satisfy the needs of 95% of those asking for Scene status reporting and is a good place to start.

 

Jim H.

[rocketraman]

I am looking forward to this feature! This will greatly simplify a lot of my "status" programs, whose purpose is just to turn on or off keypad leds depending on whether the state of various loads corresponds to a scene.

 

PS Thanks for a great little device.

[Michel Kohanim]

rocketraman,

 

Thanks so very much. It's on our list and it shall be done.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I am looking forward to this feature! This will greatly simplify a lot of my "status" programs, whose purpose is just to turn on or off keypad leds depending on whether the state of various loads corresponds to a scene.

 

PS Thanks for a great little device.

[rocketraman]

Has there been any progress made on this?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello rocketraman,

 

Yes and no. Yes because it's in our schedule and no because it's waiting for a new piece of common code which is currently being worked on as we revamp our code base.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Has there been any progress made on this?

[rocketraman]

Yes and no. Yes because it's in our schedule and no because it's waiting for a new piece of common code which is currently being worked on as we revamp our code base.

 

Thanks for the update!

[rocketraman]

I hate asking again, but has any progress been made on this functionality?

 

The new "KPL Button Groupings in Scenes" in 2.7.8+ is handy but without the extra functionality discussed in this thread, I think the new button grouping functionality doesn't really help me, since there is still a disconnect between scenes and buttons...

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi rocketraman,

 

No not yet. We are striving to have a stable official release before embarking on yet another intrusive change.

 

Just to be clear, we are talking about scene status where it's either ON or OFF depending on what controllers turn it On or Off. So, if a controller within a scene issues Off (or Fast Off), the scene will be Off. And, if a controller within a scene issues an On (of Fast On), the scene will be On. Same applies when the scene itself is turned on/off via ISY.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rocketraman]

Hi rocketraman,

 

No not yet. We are striving to have a stable official release before embarking on yet another intrusive change.

 

Sounds like a good approach.

 

Just to be clear, we are talking about scene status where it's either ON or OFF depending on what controllers turn it On or Off. So, if a controller within a scene issues Off (or Fast Off), the scene will be Off. And, if a controller within a scene issues an On (of Fast On), the scene will be On. Same applies when the scene itself is turned on/off via ISY.

 

Basically... the concept laid out previously in this thread by jhimmel and Darrel Peters I think is clearer, because it allows keypad lights to be on or off depending on the state of the associated scene, regardless of how that state was reached.

 

Cheers,

Raman

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Raman,

 

Thanks. It would be quite difficult and very intrusive to have the scene be on if and only if all the devices within the scene are at exact levels as defined by the scene. This is especially the case if the controllers within the scene have different levels than the scene itself. And, if this is the case, then why not just use the status of the scene when activated by each controller?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[rocketraman]

I was writing a response to explain what I want to do and while doing so, I realized that with the new button functionality I've been going about my design the wrong way. I don't think I need the scene status functionality at all.

 

However, while I don't think I need the scene status functionality, what I'm trying to do is still not working. I created a separate post about it here:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/view ... 23&start=0