Scyto Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Looking at my breaker map that would indicate that the KPDs are on a different leg to the PLM, but I have a large number of dual band devices on each leg. I have another KPD just a foot or two away (other side of the door) that got the signal. Could there be something causing RF interference with just these 2 KPDs (I have ~35 insteon dual band dimmers and switches in total) including ones in the hallway leading to the master bedroom and ones in the master bath behind. What should I do next to troubleshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 In my mind, the fact that a few devices are not flashing at all is not cause for alarm. You have some that are flashing green, which I would expect to be enough to provide communication between legs of your electrical system. Good. Many of my devices are old enough not to have the wireless communication, relying entirely on powerline comms. They work well at this point, and I continue to believe that insteon is primarily a powerline communication design. I consider the wireless part to be secondary and useful for phase bridging and for battery devices. Given this, perhaps now is a good time to consider the possibility of trying different locations for the PLM. Extension cords can be helpful here. What other devices do you have plugged into the same circuit as the PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Insteon is a mesh network, powertline and RF. I suspect there is a powerline issue, signal being reduced or noise. Except for a pair of Access Points to couple the 120v legs, all my devices in the house, detached garage and dock are powerline only. It means work to find the sources of powerline issues, isolating with FilterLincs. I have gotten lazy in the last year or so and installed a Dual Band SwitchLinc simply to avoid the work to find the bad appliance. Unplug devices until the powerline is working well. Make sure surge/noise suppression power strips are isolated with a FilterLinc or removed. Are the boxes metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks. This device is dual band and I thought the lack of a flashing LED during the test meant it had an RF issue, not a powerline issue, should I increase the retires on the device and PLM to 3? from the std 1? No the boxes are plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The lack of a blinking LED does means that it is not receiving the RF Beacon Message from PLM.. Unlike ZWave that is all RF, Insteon should work over powerline. You can increase the retries but I don't think that will help a Scene comm issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Ok I will troubleshoot that. I tested another KPD in another part of the house where the blinks happen - I think they were green: this is the config and results This KPD has the load on/fade and load off/fade buttons plus the 4 ABCD buttons. The room has two insteon dimmers that control two other loads in the same rame, I configure the ABCD buttons as follows (a scene for each) A set KPD load and the 2 dimmers loads to 100%, set button BCD to off B set KPD load and the 2 dimmers loads to 75%, set button ACD to off C set KPD load and the 2 dimmers loads to 50%,set button ABD to off D set KPD load and the 2 dimmers loads to 25%, set button ABC to off This is set at the scene level and at the controller level in the scene. This lets me press A B C or D on the KPD and get the level I want, if I press A and then press D the lights transition from 100% to 25% - perfect just the behavior that I want. (I also have one scene per load where each of the scenes turns of the ABCD buttons if the load is modified from the KPD load buttons or the dimmer load buttons, i.e. I want this because the scene is no longer active - why I have to setup a scene to do this is beyond me but whatever this is just FYI) In mobilinc if I press A on the virtual KPD button OR the A scene (when the lights are off) I get 100% on all loads. If I then press D all loads turn off. If I press D again all loads turn on to 25% and the local 4 buttons get set correctly. I thought the idea was that if I set the scene identically at the scene level and controller level within the scene hierarchy that they would work the same. They don't - for me this makes calling any complex setup via software that controls the scene pointless. I need the scenes called by the PLM to work like scenes activated at the local button. Is there truly no way to do this? Or are these KPDs just crap I should put a normal dimmer and use tabletop keypad pure scene controller- would that work ok? I attached the real example to this post (note the names and the % are different - but each button is setup like above) - can someone validate I at least did the right things incase I am being a dummy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Pressing the D button and loads turn Off indicates the Scene associated with the D button was sent an Off command. Seems to be confirmed by the loads going to 25% on next press. Remove some of the variables by using the actual buttons on the KPD and see what happens when A is used followed by D. Allow a few seconds between A and D press as an Insteon Scene is being naturally driven by each button press. . Are the KPL buttons in Toggle mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 When I use the button on the KPD the scene transitions from the settings on A to the setting on D beautifully, say from 100% to 25%. Yes the buttons are in toggle mode (I forgot there was even such a thing). I do like to be able press D for 25% and then press D again for 0% - I wouldn't like to get rid of that if I don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Are you current with Mobilinc updates? I do not use Mobilinc so this will have to be evaluated by that team. Buttons alternate between On and Off so I suspect that is what Mobilinc is simulating. However, since the Scene executed with button A turns off/insures Off button D, the button D in Mobilinc press should always send On only Scene commands when D is pressed. I do not know if that is within the Mobilinc capability. Something Mobilinc will have to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 In my version of mobilinc (android) I don't have "virtual keypad buttons". I can choose a button, or I can choose a scene. Once chosen, I can tell either to turn on, off, dim, bright, etc... I am confused by your "virtual keypad" description. I don't believe toggle mode effects mobilinc operation. I also note that the responder level settings for your scene-level is different (slightly) than for the device "theater sconces.games" is controller. Is this the "button A" to which you refer. My experience with mobilinc is that if I turn the scene ON from mobilinc, the responder devices will transition to the ON levels associated with the scene level. If, from mobilinc, I directly turn on a specific device that is a controller of the scene, the device will turn on, but the scene responders will not. To do what I suspect you want to do from mobilinc, you may need to create mutliple scenes, one each for every controller device. The scene properties need to match exactly the properties associated with the controller device. From mobilinc, you will need to control the scene only. Perhaps iOS is different. Do you use android or iOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsteonNut Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi Scyto and LeeG, MobiLinc does understand if your KPL is set to toggle or non-toggle mode. If non-toggle, MobiLinc will only send that non-toggle command (ON or OFF) to the scene that the KPL controls. Since it sounds like Scyto didn't change the default toggle behavior, then MobiLinc will send the KPL controlled scene an ON or OFF command depending on the KPL status when the KPL icon is pressed in MobiLinc. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thank InsteonNut - tonight I will see if calling the scene from mobilinc is different from calling the scene in ISY (to test the A to D transition). This will let me know if this is unique to Mobilinc or not and then I can move forward from there on testing the toggle behavior). OberkC - My setup is exactly what you describe. I have a scene for every controller (a scene per A B C D button). In terms of the virtual button, I am talking about Orchestrated Mobilinc on iPad that has pictures of the KPDs and you can tap the ABCD button on that picture. In the iPhone version the equivalentt can be found by going to My Devices -> Room Name -> KPD Device Name -> <list of each controller on the KPD>. I will let you know the results of my testing thanks everyone for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 OberkC - My setup is exactly what you describe. I have a scene for every controller (a scene per A B C D button). In terms of the virtual button, I am talking about Orchestrated Mobilinc on iPad that has pictures of the KPDs and you can tap the ABCD button on that picture. In the iPhone version the equivalentt can be found by going to My Devices -> Room Name -> KPD Device Name -> <list of each controller on the KPD>. Unfortunately, this is a little different than the android version. I cannot be much help. Still, I would expect that, when controlling the "SCENE", they should behave the same as when doing so via the ISY admin panel. I expect that when pushing the A button on your virtual keypad, this might not work. With the android version, for example, directly controlling a switchlinc that is controller of a micromodule does NOT cause the micromodule to react. When I choose the actual scene from mobilinc (rather than a specific scene controller), the scene works fine. Perhaps the iOS version of mobilinc makes use of the knowledge that button A is a scene controller and activates the scene in the background. It would not be the first time there are differences between android and iOS versions. I am having trouble envisioning how it would do so having the responders react as programmed to respond to the A button, however. I look forward to hearing your findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsteonNut Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi Oberkc, Both iOS and Android are the same here. If you tap the icon representation of the KPL, MobiLinc will vector over to the scene to issue the ON/OFF command if that device (KPL) is actually a scene controller. If you go into the details of the device to the individual ON/OFF rows and tap one of these on either iOS or Android, a direct device command is sent. Since KPLs can't be told to turn on directly, these are only "status" devices at this level. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Wes, Perhaps I am missing something or have missed a setup step, but mine did NOT do this. I tried one simple scene, with a switchlinc as controller and micromodule as responder. When I selected the switchlinc and commanded ON from mobilinc, the micromodule did not respond as it would when I press the keypad directly. Perhaps my responder level at the scene level is not properly set. Perhaps this works only for keypads? Does mobilinc use the scene level responses when simulating the scene responses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 I have confirmed this behavior is unique to mobilinc. Calling the ABCD scenes from the ISY Admin Console works perfectly (the loads transition nicely). I would assert that this is a bug in mobilinc in that it seems to be sending an off to the scene, rather than an on to the new scene. Who do I have to ask to get it fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 have you recently "synced" with the controller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 oberkc, on 05 Feb 2015 - 8:04 PM, said:oberkc, on 05 Feb 2015 - 8:04 PM, said:oberkc, on 05 Feb 2015 - 8:04 PM, said:oberkc, on 05 Feb 2015 - 8:04 PM, said:have you recently "synced" with the controller? oh yes. and on further testing from mobilinc transition between scene B and C is perfect, betwen C and B is perfect, between C and A is perfect, A to C results in an off. B to A is perfect A to B results in an off. This is just freaky. (remember it is ok when calling the scenes in ISY) Interestingly snap switch has similar behavior. However there every transition results in an off instead of a transition. My intuition is depending on how the app is written because all loads are on in all scenes sometimes it thinks the scenes are on sand sends an off command by mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsteonNut Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 oberkc, Perhaps I am missing something or have missed a setup step, but mine did NOT do this. I tried one simple scene, with a switchlinc as controller and micromodule as responder. When I selected the switchlinc and commanded ON from mobilinc, the micromodule did not respond as it would when I press the keypad directly. That's what I would expect. If you tunnel into the device details and explicitly select the ON row then MobiLinc will send the ON command just to that device. It's when you are outside of device details and tapping the device icon does MobiLinc consider looking at your scenes for a scene that the device controls. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsteonNut Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Scyto, I have confirmed this behavior is unique to mobilinc. Calling the ABCD scenes from the ISY Admin Console works perfectly (the loads transition nicely). I would assert that this is a bug in mobilinc in that it seems to be sending an off to the scene, rather than an on to the new scene. Who do I have to ask to get it fixed? I honestly haven't been able to follow what the issue is with your setup verses how MobiLinc is working for you. Can you clearly restate just the issue between MobiLinc and your ISY? I might have other suggestions for you. In order to best assist I really need to understand exactly how your scene(s) are defined both at the scene level and for the KPL buttons and including exactly what you are doing in MobiLinc. Screenshots would be great here. There are a number of nuances between MobiLinc and the ISY so all the details are relevant. FYI: If you go under "Scenes" in MobiLinc and activate your scenes here this is exactly the same thing as turning on/off scenes from the Admin Console. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 What extra info beyond the linked post and the screenshots in it do you need? Let me know and I will supply. http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15327-mobilinc-doesnt-activate-scenes-correctly/page-2?do=findComment&comment=130754 As per your FYI - I am telling you that this is not the case. Calling the scenes from the admin console i.e. calling the scenes in any sequence works perfectly and from mobilic it does not. I will also try again to explain the config as per the earlier post but in a step by step fashion and with real world names rather than the ABCD nomenclature - perhaps mapping that to the pictures was hard - I hope this makes it clearer? If not let me know. Requirements: ISY 994ir/pro + zwave - all on latest firmware, I am not sure what PLM 2413S firmware version I have have a load controlled by a INSTEON 2477D Remote Control Dimmer (Dual-Band), v.41 - Lets rename it load1 in the UI have a load controlled by a INSTEON 2477D Remote Control Dimmer (Dual-Band), v.41 - Lets rename it load2 in the UI have a load controller by a INSTEON 2334-232 Keypad Dimmer Switch(KPD) (Dual-Band), 6-Button, v.43 - lets rename it load3, and rename the 4 sub devices to be named load3.TV, load3.Movies, load3.Games and load3.other Configure the admin console to group devices by hierarchy make sure you have the latest version of orchestrated mobilinc installed on your iPhone and iPad In the admin console create 4 scenes, lets call them TV, Movies, Games, Other Create Scene TV Add load1, load2, load3,load3.movies, load3.games, load3.other as responders Add load3.tv as controller Set the scene load parameters at the scene (ie. the scene node) load1 = 40% load2 = 40% load3 = 40% load3.movies = off load3.games = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load3.tv) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller. Create Scene Movies Add load1, load2, load3,load3.TV, load3.games, load3.other as responders Add load3.movies as controller Set the scene load parameters at the scene (ie. the scene node) load1 = 20% load2 = 20% load3 = 20% load3.tv = off load3.games = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load3.movies) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller. Create Scene games Add load1, load2, load3,load3.TV, load3.movies, load3.other as responders Add load3.games as controller Set the scene load parameters at the scene (ie. the scene node) load1 = 20% load2 = 40% load3 = 20% load3.tv = off load3.movies = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load3.games) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller. Create Scene other Add load1, load2, load3,load3.TV, load3.movies, load3.games as responders Add load3.other as controller Set the scene load parameters at the scene (ie. the scene node) load1 = 100% load2 = 100% load3 = 100% load3.tv = off load3.movies = off load3.games = off On the controller node under the scene node (load3.other) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller. Create 3 more scenes to turn off the ABCD buttons in the event the load is modified from the dimmers or load buttons on the KPD (because the scene is no longer in effect) Create scene called load1.reset Add load3.other, load3.TV, load3.movies, load3.games as responders Add load1 as a controller Set the scene load parameters as: load1 = 100% load3.tv = off load3.movies = off load3.games = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load1) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller Create scene called load2.reset Add load3.other, load3.TV, load3.movies, load3.games as responders Add load2 as a controller Set the scene load parameters as: load2 = 100% load3.tv = off load3.movies = off load3.games = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load2) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller Create scene called load3.reset Add load3.other, load3.TV, load3.movies, load3.games as responders Add load3 as a controller Set the scene load parameters as: load3 = 100% load3.tv = off load3.movies = off load3.games = off load3.other = off On the controller node under the scene node (load3) copy the attributes from the scene to the controller All ABCD buttons are in toggle mode. This results in a KPD where when all loads are off pressing TV button physically on the KPD will turn all loads onto 40%, then pressing the movies button will transition the scene to 20% and so on up through the scenes (or pressing the buttons in any order) - it also ensure the ABCD buttons get turned off when their scene is no longer in effect. Calling the scenes from the ISY admin console perfectly mimics what happens when I press the physical buttons. Now go into mobilic on the iPhone or iPad. Navigate to the scenes view and try calling the scenes TV, Movies, Games Other - in some cases the scene will transition perfectly and some result in turning off the lights (as per my post above). If one uses the my devices section of mobilic on the iPhone or iPad to call the TV, Movies, Games, Other buttons the behavior is identical to calling the scenes in mobilinc. Conclusion: I concur that pressing the buttons on the graphical representation of the KPD on the iPad is the same as calling the associated scene. I am ok with this. However that calling the scene from mobilinc in this setup is NOT the same as calling the scene from the ISY admin console. I have no idea if this is a bug with mobilic OR a bug with the API mobilinc is calling. PS you should find this much more closely matches the pictures I posted in the post way up above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsteonNut Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks Scyto, However that calling the scene from mobilinc in this setup is NOT the same as calling the scene from the ISY admin console. I have no idea if this is a bug with mobilic OR a bug with the API mobilinc is calling. Ok, not to be too defensive here, but the API MobiLinc calls to the ISY is exactly the same API call the Admin Console makes. I know because I wrote it modeling it from the Admin Console. Plus, MobiLinc can't tell the scene to behave differently. If the scene ON command makes it to the ISY it's the same scene ON command as the Admin Console. So, what else could be happening? I've seen cases where if you try to activate scenes quickly where there are multiple KPLs in a scene that are all on the same device just like you have here, you need to wait several seconds between scene calls. I'm not sure why that is, but in my testing I've seen where there's a lot of INSTEON traffic that needs to be resolved before you'll get reliable and predictable results calling the next scene. This seems to be especially true where the controller (KPL) and responder KPLs are on the same physical INSTEON device. Here's how I'd test this: - Open the Admin Console and the Event Window to watch INSTEON communication traffic on Level 3. - Open MobiLinc and find your first scene. - Turn the scene ON. - Watch the INSTEON traffic and wait until all traffic has stopped for 10 seconds. - In MobiLinc activate your next scene and repeat making sure to wait at least 10 seconds after you see all the INSTEON traffic stop from the previous scene command. See if that cleans up what you are seeing. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 I have always waited 3 or 4 seconds before transitions but will try the 10 seconds wait as you describe when I get home. I can call the scenes from here on my iPhone and monitor the Admin console remotely but that doesn't mean I can see what is actually happening in the room I have found the KPDs to generally be a fricking nightmare to understand and configure, I think I am there now (except for the 2 with comms issues in the bedroom) I now know why Revolv never wanted to support them I wasn't accusing the code in mobilic of anything I just outlined that I have an inconsistency in behavior and the only logical options are. I messed up on some config item but can’t spot it There is a bug in the mobilic code There is a bug in the ISY API mobilinc calls There is a bug with how the scene is written in the PLM and this is a minor difference between calling via API and the console something else...? I have no idea either!!!! I have also logged a call with ISY support on this so hopefully together we can get to the bottom of this. --edit-- Oh and to be clear the results I am getting on this KPD are consistent and 100% repeatable, so while it may be traffic coms and I am willing to test it I don't think the 10 second test will make much difference. But the only way to know if for me to try --edit-- Oh and did the new write up help explain the scenario enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 ok more results firstly apologies this (the scene incorrectly turning off) only happens with orchestrated mobilic on the iPhone. it does not happen with orchestrated mobilic on the ipad. attached are two logs one from transitioning scenes ok, the other from it does not, it appears when using the iPhone orch mobilic a scene off command gets sent The good log file attached was generated using orchestrated mobilinc on ipad, the bad log file was generated using orchestrated mobilinc on the iPhone. I attached two iPhone screen shots. the first is all the loads off. Then I touched TV to turn TV scene on. This seems to change the state of the games and movies scene on. If I press other, the scene transitions if I press games or movies all the lights go off. Also I relooked at the iPad version. And I noticed a few things, look at the attached iPad screenshots. Only one accurately reflects the state. When the movies scene is on the other 3 scenes show as off. This is correct. The TV scene shows games and movie scenes as on at 36% - I have no idea where it is getting this number from as the loads are at 40% (as shown in UDI console) moreover the games and movie scene should read as off. And when the other scene is active it shows games and movies as 66% even though the 3 loads are at 100% and the games and movie scenes should read as off. I notice the iPhone version shows these erroneous percentages too... good.txt bad.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 In Mobilinc on the iPhone, try changing Settins / Mobilinc Settings / Advanced Scene Status. See if that makes any difference. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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