Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 I am going to refer you to the two items still remaining for you to complete, confirm, and do. 1. Coupling / Bridging 2. Unplug all of this electrical gear and report back the outcome. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Ok, the unpluging of all electrical items is going to take me a while but I will do it. Any suggestions on what the likely candidates would be best to start with, I know cell chargers and the like but anything else. Also, as for the coupling/bridging, how will i confirm this, should I try the beacon test again.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 "OK.....which tells us what?" It means the PLM does not have the required Responder (A2.......) link records. It means that the restores does not fix the problem. It means some action taken on your end wiped out the PLM Responder link records, otherwise a Restore Device would correct the PLM. It means that a normal device add works as it should as the required Responder link records are created. With none of the questions answered about things like Firmware and UI levels it is hard to guess the steps taken on your end. Maybe a Delete Modem (PLM) with some restores done after that restored the Controller links in the PLM that was deleted but did not restore the Responder links that would not be required when the PLM was deleted. All guess work. Delete and add each device. The Hidden Door Sensor delete and add verified the ISY is working because the required Responder links were created. The firmware for the ISY was confirmed earlier but I've attached again.
LeeG Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 The Responder links must be created in the PLM first. Devices cannot signal PLM/ISY without those links. Coupling tests are fine but it is like looking at the coupling but the devices are not powered. Fix the responder links first.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 The Responder links must be created in the PLM first. Devices cannot signal PLM/ISY without those links. Coupling tests are fine but it is like looking at the coupling but the devices are not powered. Fix the responder links first. By responders you mean switchlincs?
Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 Question....should wireless devices be linked at the location where they will reside or does it matter. I'm having trouble getting my last wireless device, Basement hidden door sensor to link since I have deleted it. It is located directly below the Back door sensor so I am surprised it dont just link through the same device as it which I would think would be the back porch switchlink. This switch is no more than 10 feet from either of these door sensors.
oberkc Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Question....should wireless devices be linked at the location where they will reside or does it matter Should not matter, so long as the linking takes place. This does not guarantee, however, that the device will work at the final location.
stusviews Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Linking a device, which includes adding it the the ISY is considerably more intensive than using it. It's not uncommon for a wireless device to have be closer to the PLM when adding it.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 Also, just for added info I did the beacon test again but this time from a lamp module in the other end of the house that responded to the previous beacon test done from the PLM and indicated it was on the same phase.....blinking red. When this (using lamp module) beacon test was started I can confirm that at least 3 switchlincs are on the opposite phase (blinking green) however strangely two of these three also blink red sometimes during this test and the same 3 didn't respond at all when the beacon test was done from the PLM. I guess in a round about way it does confirm I have coupling but just not from the PLM.
stusviews Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 If a device does not respond at all to the 4-tap/beacon test, that just means that the two devices are not communicating via RF. Only one pair of dual-band devices need to respond correctly for bridging to occur. It's best to achieve coupling in both directions, that is, initiating the test from the responding device. BTW, the electricity delivered to virtually all dwellings in North America is split, single-phase. It is the opposite legs of the electric supply that is being coupled. An exception is Philadelphia which still has 2-phase power and also some rural areas. Commercial structures, including some apartment buildings, have 3-phase power.
Newfiestang50 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 If a device does not respond at all to the 4-tap/beacon test, that just means that the two devices are not communicating via RF. Only one pair of dual-band devices need to respond correctly for bridging to occur. It's best to achieve coupling in both directions, that is, initiating the test from the responding device. BTW, the electricity delivered to virtually all dwellings in North America is split, single-phase. It is the opposite legs of the electric supply that is being coupled. An exception is Philadelphia which still has 2-phase power and also some rural areas. Commercial structures, including some apartment buildings, have 3-phase power. Ok so now I know i have bridging as per my previous post however I just have to figure out why the switchlincs that are on the opposite side of my electrical panel are not receiving the RF signal from my PLM. I guess that might explain why my programs are not working? As for the terminology on phasing, it just seems like more people understand it as two phases even though we have single phase power. Also, for the group helping me. I now have unplugged a lot of stuff in my house but while doing that process I accidentally unplugged my ISY. It seems that by doing that power cycle I now have a much healthier system. I now have the ability to function every device in my system from the console, even see that all my wireless devices are working, however, my programs and scenes still don't work except for my back door program. It seems to be back working since I deleted and added the back door sensor.
LeeG Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 "It seems to be back working since I deleted and added the back door sensor." That is the result of the PLM now having Responder link records (A2.......) for the Hidden Door Sensor. Insteon requires these link records in the PLM for the PLM to aware of device activity. Until the PLM has Responder links for all the other devices the PLM (and therefore the ISY) will not be aware of button/paddle activity, Motion messages, TriggerLinc activity etc. Normally a Restore Device for each device would correct the missing link records. Since that did not work nor did a Restore Modem (PLM), the only step left is to delete and readd the devices to restore the missing PLM records.
Xathros Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 LeeG- Would restoring an ISY backup from prior to the problem then restoring devices solve the responder link record issue? Might this be better than removing and re-adding all of his devices? Once the comm issues are resolved obviously. -Xathros
LeeG Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Xathros Good idea. If the backup is available and not too far back.
Teken Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Ok so now I know i have bridging as per my previous post however I just have to figure out why the switchlincs that are on the opposite side of my electrical panel are not receiving the RF signal from my PLM. I guess that might explain why my programs are not working? If a device does not respond to the RF (Beacon) test it is either on the same leg, too far, or noise is present. I now have unplugged a lot of stuff in my house but while doing that process I accidentally unplugged my ISY. It seems that by doing that power cycle I now have a much healthier system. I now have the ability to function every device in my system from the console, even see that all my wireless devices are working, however, my programs and scenes still don't work except for my back door program. It seems to be back working since I deleted and added the back door sensor. Given your small Insteon network the reality is the most straight forward next step is to delete all devices from the ISY Series Controller. Then proceed to hard reset all of the devices per the full users manual. This will ensure all devices are in a default state and no ghost programming and half links are not present. You must only use the ISY Series Controller to add and create scenes. Once this is done you can re-assign the devices to their respective programs. My thoughts listed in line . . . Despite popular belief dual band devices can not over come a noise maker / signal sucker environment. Dual band devices installed into any metal JBOX will dramaticly reduce its RF ability. Personal experience has shown if there is noise on the line or in the air the RF portion will not compensate for this. Once your entire home is proven to be coupled and a the 4 tap (beacon) test is successful in both directions you can move forward. Since you have unplugged a few items the next step is to plug in one electrical device until Insteon COM's start to degrade. This is your bench mark as to success / failure . . . It goes with out saying you need to be paying attention to the 4 tap (beacon) test along with running scene tests. If you have four devices in a scene and everything works (instantly) prior to plugging in any new device. Great . . . Now, plug in what ever XXX device and perform the same 4 tap beacon test / scene test. If this next device does not impact the above continue to add in more electrical devices until it does. Once you have identified what is sucking / making noise place it on a Insteon filterlinc. This process is time consuming but in reality is only done once. So the time spent doing it the first go round is well worth the time and effort. I've installed over 400 Insteon networks to date and this is a tried and true method that simply works. Another option is to turn off select breakers to help reduce the amount of time of unplugging devices etc. But using this option must be done knowing full well the following requirement is known and present. 1. Coupling / bridging must be present at all times otherwise you're causing problems not resolving them. 2. You must know 100% what that breaker controls and what is installed down stream.
Newfiestang50 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Posted April 12, 2015 Just to close this post I wanted to update that I now have my compete system working as it did before. I have everything back installed as it was before and all electrical items plugged back in with no filters installed. As I mentioned above I could not understand why this system stopped working when nothing else changed in the house and it worked fine for six months. Anyway long story short I deleted all my scenes (3) and recreated them, this solved the problem and all my programming started working fine. Not sure what caused my scenes to get corrupted but for some reason they did. Anyway, thanks to everyone for the support on this topic, it was a learning experience for me.
Xathros Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Thanks for posting back with your result. I would suggest that you make and keep regular backups of your ISY. In the event this were to happen again, a backup could be restored and a restore modem and restore devices run to rebuild everything without the manual process of re-creating all of the scenes. -Xathros
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