OMG!! I am so tired of this app

[io_guy]

io_guy, are you saying that you have expertise to develop/modify an Android app?

 

Develop, no never made one.  Modify, can't be hard to add variables/security since the groundwork is already paved and I've already have code in another language.

 

I've debated making a cross-platform ISY app a number of times in Xamarin (mono) since I already have the underlying code in my Link programs.  If I get some free time and don't see any Mobilinc progress I may kick this off.

[MWareman]

Could also look at something like phonegap, develop once and compile for most platforms.

[paulbates]

If cross platform is the desire for an app, it's critical to start off knowing that and consider development tools that ready to support that, as suggested in the posts above.  Especially tools that allow mobile platform emulators for testing. Its easy to get lost in there.

 

Its hard to jump across after you go deeper into any one OS. It becomes 2 different apps with two different lives of their own.

 

.net seems a perfect foundation to build an HA mobile app on.

 

io_guy, if things goes this way, and you want help testing or something I can do, let me know.

[InsteonNut]

Hi Folks,

 

I've been following along and understand the communities desire for better Android support. For anyone with Android dev experience, please see this: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16017-android-developer-wanted-apply-by-june-1st/

 

Wes

[G W]

Could also look at something like phonegap, develop once and compile for most platforms.

I'm all for using PhoneGap and I know a few experts.

 

I've been laying out the basics of an Android app and working on getting data out of the ISY.

 

Step two will be sending data to the ISY.

 

Once all that's done the UI needs to be designed. That's where I get stuck. I have no idea what the UI will look like.

 

Gary

[arw01]

One of my biggest beefs with Mobilinc is it's totally incapable of reliably switching between local and secure.  When you are on your local network you cannot use secure since it cannot find a path, when you are out and on any wifi network it thinks you are local.  And if you get where the signal is a little iffy around your house, forget about it.  I tried Mobilinc and that was just as bad, it could never make up it's mind what it was doing, spinning L or spinning s, no hint of what is off the tracks, no log capability to see what was going on, etc.

 

I once hit my garage open in mobilinc, it was confused as to if i was in the wifi at home or not and an hour later I come by and the garage is open, apparently it tried long enough after I moved on that it opened it up when I was no longer around.

 

It seems the biggest stumbling block for someone to get a basic layer started is the subscription and the TLS connections etc, there doesn't seem to be native support in HTML 5, as I've not seen anyone be able to make it work without using node.js or something java based, and personally I would like to see NOTHING java for the cross platform cross device and the sheet number of attack vectors against java in general.

[InsteonNut]

Hi arw01,

 

I wanted to jump in and give my input on your local/secure issues. There could be several reasons why you are seeing what you are seeing. Let me walk through what *could* be happening in your case:

 

- Make sure you are using 2.0.6 version. A previous version did have an auto-detect issue with a version of the ISY firmware that was fixed earlier this year.

- If using Android 5, you must have the latest ISY firmware installed. 

- When MobiLinc starts up on ANY Wi-Fi network it sends out a UPnP ping and wait for a few seconds for ISY responses. If none are received (or it's someone else ISY) then MobiLinc switches over to use the HTTPS connection. It's simply not true that if Wi-Fi MobiLinc uses local. What you might have seen is a restriction placed on port use by the free WI-Fi provider. If communication happens outside of port 80 or 443 the public Wi-Fi source might be blocking or dropping those network requests.

- If MobiLinc can't see your ISY (different Wi-Fi network, not the same router, cellular, etc) it will use HTTPS. Now, if you happen to be on a guest network in your home (different than your main Wi-Fi network or an extender that doesn't bridge UPnP) and your router doesn't support IP Loopback, then the router can't connect MobiLinc's requests to your ISY. Most router's support IP loopback, but not all.

- If the Android device has a weak cell or weak Wi-Fi data signal, then there will be communication issues until the signal is resolved.

 

All the above considerations are non-issues using MobiLinc Connect cloud service. If you were having issues with MobiLinc Connect this is NOT normal behavior and I'd highly recommend you contact me at support@mobilinc.com to get me involved to help diagnose. 

 

Wes

[arw01]

I will run down your trouble list, I'm on 4.2.23 currently, was able to use Mobilnc here and there, but today I could not turn on my sprinklers while standing the yard with two full bars of access and literally under 20' to the wireless router through a glass window.  I will check which version of Mobilinc is on my S5 when I grab it in  a bit.  However I believe google has been automatically updating all my apps unless they need new permissions.

 

I've NOT seen a reliable failover from trying wifi to secure, I have to change the connection method, close mobilinc and re-open to get it to use the one I want.  What would be nice if it could ask the phone what wifi network it is connected to, compare it to a list of my  isy is local here (or here's a concept, hey I found and connected to an ISY on this network before so I know I am on the same network from this here bit of data I have stored of home ssid's)

[Scottmichaelj]

I am not here to jump on the bandwagon and I have the upmost respect for Wes at Mobilinc and Michel at Universal Devices. However I do have some serious concerns and I feel that both companies needs to step up their game or be left in the dust possibly causing financial loss or worse. If you look at this from a business point of view the new iOS app by Smarthome looks pretty impressive, to then add Apple Watch to the mix now puts the pressure on. Granted we don't know whats been happening behind the scenes but the tides could be turning. Both Michel and Wes have had a pretty easy playing field and gigantic lead with no real competition. If the Smarthome Insteon Hub Pro gets going and starts doing things the right way it could steal away all future sales from the ISY along with any third party apps. Especially if they make the iOS app free and add dynamic DNS service part of the package. Ease of use for a new users is also essential and has been a hurdle for many people coming to the ISY platform. The other scary thing is if Smarthome ever decides they want to stop the partnership with any vendors that directly compete with them they could stop selling the UD ISY along with anyone else doing something similar. 

 

I wish both Wes and Michel all the success in the world. Both have been amazing and the customer support top notch, and I am a daily user of both products. However I am personally an "investor" and customer service can only go so far. It's time to innovate and get the product/major updates ready to launch at the very least by the same time Apple and Smarthome does. I also know for a fact Smarthome is ready to ship the Insteon Hub Pro units, however they can't until Apple Signs the HomeKit apps that are stacking up "pending" waiting for whenever Apple decides to hit the button.

 

This is purely speculation, but I don't think Apple wants to play "catch up" in the Home Automation space with themselves so I think we will see the release of a new AppleTV with HomeKit/Home Automation included someway, along with iOS apps available from the app store being able to be installed on the AppleTV. My guess is Apple will say something at WWDC in June and I expect the AppleTV to turn into more of an "Apple Central Hub". Although Apple's own releases won't be a huge blow to UD and Mobilinc but Smarthome and the Internet of Things (magnitude of companies) revolution thats coming may. My hope is the space doesn't get too fragmented like Android OS. 

 

Of course this is my opinion and you know what they say about those! 

[mwester]

Apple is not a threat to UDI, nor to most of the core device manufacturers -- they will create their own new market, which has little overlap with the hobbyist market nor with the commercial or industrial users of automation technology.

 

The entire "hype" part of the market right now, the part that Apple is focused upon, is the "glitz" side of things.  It's all cloud-dependent, and UI-centric -- it's not far removed from "entertainment" which is really, if you think about it, what Apple's core strength really is.

 

Serious hobbyists will find that Apple, like the Insteon hub, is too closed, too proprietary, too limited, and too dependent.  Nice UI, indeed -- but most won't be willing to give up what they'll have to in order to use Apple's stuff.  That's where UDI and the core device folks will remain strong, where hobbyists expect to do things nobody ever thought to try, where experimentation is key, and on the other extreme where reliability is key (and dependence upon Apple and SmartHome's servers would be impossible).

[oberkc]

I also notice a trend here that seems to put high priority on control of lighting from the phone.  Slick-and-pretty apps appear to be important to some.  I, on the other hand, view control of my lighting by phone to be a backup capability at best, or for the rare times when I want to control something while away.  (Ironically, the combination of mobilinc and tasker has enabled me to create icons right on the home screen.  No opening of apps needed.  I don't see apple duplicating this.)

 

For me, it is about AUTOMATION.  I don't want to have to manually control anything, and when I do, I don't want to have to carry my phone around in order to do it.  I still like switches at key locations throughout the house for local control and I don't think there is anything to fear from Apple as far as competing with the automation capability present in the ISY-994.  Yes, the iOS app may be pretty, but that is a trivial concern, in my life.

[pyrorobert]

I know it's not June 1st yet, but are there any updates? Ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Robert

[G W]

Some updates and a lot of ideas.

9

[InsteonNut]

Hi Robert,

 

I'll have some announcements after the 1st. I'm still taking applications for those Android devs interested till Monday.

 

Wes

[Scottmichaelj]

Apple is not a threat to UDI, nor to most of the core device manufacturers -- they will create their own new market, which has little overlap with the hobbyist market nor with the commercial or industrial users of automation technology.

 

The entire "hype" part of the market right now, the part that Apple is focused upon, is the "glitz" side of things.  It's all cloud-dependent, and UI-centric -- it's not far removed from "entertainment" which is really, if you think about it, what Apple's core strength really is.

 

Serious hobbyists will find that Apple, like the Insteon hub, is too closed, too proprietary, too limited, and too dependent.  Nice UI, indeed -- but most won't be willing to give up what they'll have to in order to use Apple's stuff.  That's where UDI and the core device folks will remain strong, where hobbyists expect to do things nobody ever thought to try, where experimentation is key, and on the other extreme where reliability is key (and dependence upon Apple and SmartHome's servers would be impossible).

 

I agree with you that "serious hobbyists" will stay with the ISY, as I know I will, however more and more people will be drawn into Home Automation due to Apple growing the space. I think the ISY is like Linux, the hardcore people like it however the install base is small. As a business I would you rather go after the larger group then focusing on the smaller niche as there is less money to be made. While Apple may bring more serious hobbyists to HA/ISY you may loose the not so serious back to Apple. Overall people like the IFTTT approach and apps so thats where the most money will be made with people who want simple control regardless if they have to use an app and technically not a "true" home automation experience. 

 

9to5Mac and TechCrunch is reporting Apple’s HomeKit platform will see first accessories launch next week and Google announced their Home Automation plans at their I/o Dev conference last week using IoT. Seems like the space is heating up and its going to be interesting to see what comes from it. All in all we will be winners.

 

http://9to5mac.com/2015/05/29/apple-homekit-shipping-june/?pushup=1

 

http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/apples-home-app-for-homekit-said-to-include-virtual-rooms-apple-tv-hub/#.xtrhot:ljwI

[Teken]

I agree with you that "serious hobbyists" will stay with the ISY, as I know I will, however more and more people will be drawn into Home Automation due to Apple growing the space. I think the ISY is like Linux, the hardcore people like it however the install base is small. As a business I would you rather go after the larger group then focusing on the smaller niche as there is less money to be made. While Apple may bring more serious hobbyists to HA/ISY you may loose the not so serious back to Apple. Overall people like the IFTTT approach and apps so thats where the most money will be made with people who want simple control regardless if they have to use an app and technically not a "true" home automation experience. 

 

9to5Mac and TechCrunch is reporting Apple’s HomeKit platform will see first accessories launch next week and Google announced their Home Automation plans at their I/o Dev conference last week using IoT. Seems like the space is heating up and its going to be interesting to see what comes from it. All in all we will be winners.

 

http://9to5mac.com/2015/05/29/apple-homekit-shipping-june/?pushup=1

 

http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/20/apples-home-app-for-homekit-said-to-include-virtual-rooms-apple-tv-hub/#.xtrhot:ljwI

 

 

With the recent launch of the Alpha 5.XX firmware branch having virtual nodes / node server(s) will help the ISY Series Controller to be more flexible and expandable to the general public. My belief is that UDI has to hire on someone with UI / Mobile App experience.

 

Whether this comes in the form of a KS project funded to hire on a contractor or part time programmer. This single area will help expand the adoption and market penetration.

 

Many people know I have a pretty dim view on the Smartlabs controllers. But the one thing I have always been honest about is that they have a very nice UI / Mobile App presence. The reality is the market is full of dumb, lazy, and inept people who simply want a plug and play approach that has a slick interface.

 

If this aspect is addressed head on from the UDI team I can assure you the skies will open up and money will be pouring down!

 

Nobody is asking to make the ISY Series Controller dumber by any stretch of the imagination. But, they must realize first impressions are everything in the HA industry now as it has been forever.

 

Nobody has ever come up to me and said you know what Teken. That ugly chick is really nice!

 

Back On Topic: I am happy to see some movement on the Apple Home Kit front. I am very interested in seeing how the Smartlabs HUB Pro operates and what feature sets are made available. As I stated in numerous threads if this HUB Pro ends up offering the exact limited functions as the last four units.

 

Joe Dada better step down and let some fresh meat come in to run the show, period.

 

The reality is if if Smartlabs is every allowed to unleash a full on controller that has conditional logic, real time clock, multi I/O ports, and multi protocol support, and adopting standards like Apple Home Kit etc.

 

They will kill off any sales of ISY Series Controllers . . .

 

The only saving grace is the shear fact the company is being run by cheap, clueless, people with no vision or the gumption to do it right the first go round.

 

Success is built on experience, and taking that know how and proven tech and building upon it. Its not about repeating the same mistakes and regurgitating the same crap year after year.

 

But what the hell do I know???

 

I've only turned around hundreds of companies from bankruptcy to turning profit!

[larryllix]

Smartlabs is already cramping off the Insteon market by being the only manufacturer of devices.

 

Keeping UDI "on a leash" and as a partner,  is a good thing for marketing their products. Making a decent Insteon HA controller and killing ISY  would make their world smaller and people are already noticing how restricted to one company Insteon is This is no different than manufacturer's outlets (real ones) always having higher prices than the competition. It's done on purpose. Their perceived "competition" ARE their customers they would kill.

 

Reading some other forums, this fear becomes very apparent, as anytime Insteon is mentioned as an alternative the "Yeah, but Insteon is a lone wolf." comes out of the holster.

 

If SmartLabs decides to quit making Insteon devices or rolls their already installed  interfaces to only talk to their Hub II then what? Just like the fear mongers said.

 

My money is on Betamax and CompactFlash memory cards. They are the big ones to stand behind.

[Teken]

Smartlabs is already cramping off the Insteon market by being the only manufacturer of devices.

 

Keeping UDI "on a leash" and as a partner,  is a good thing for marketing their products. Making a decent Insteon HA controller and killing ISY  would make their world smaller and people are already noticing how restricted to one company Insteon is This is no different than manufacturer's outlets (real ones) always having higher prices than the competition. It's done on purpose. Their perceived "competition" ARE their customers they would kill.

 

Reading some other forums, this fear becomes very apparent, as anytime Insteon is mentioned as an alternative the "Yeah, but Insteon is a lone wolf." comes out of the holster.

 

If SmartLabs decides to quit making Insteon devices or rolls their already installed  interfaces to only talk to their Hub II then what? Just like the fear mongers said.

 

My money is on Betamax and CompactFlash memory cards. They are the big ones to stand behind.

 

Sorry, I'm a DCC, Open Reel, 8 Track, 12" vinyl type of guy! 

[G W]

May I join your club? When it works keep using it.

[paulbates]

I look at it as more of an advantage that Insteon is a "one throat to choke" solution. Its an end to end suite of products to pick up and use, and not necessarily get into the integration details. We tend to like the integration here, but the greater, growing new market will just expect it to work.

 

I watched Homeseer 1 and 2 from the x10 days, through insteon and then zwave. Insteon into HS went well. A standard and a set of products. zwave gave HS Tech some heartburn, as its a single standard with many companies interpreting it, not one company like insteon. The are a lot of advantages to Zwave, and I'm not knocking it, but less energy goes into integrating new insteon products than new zwave products because of how the different manufacturers treat the zwave standard. 

 

I believe Insteon now commands a dominant retail presence for this reason. You buy a set of components that work together, because they were designed that way. I think this model will appeal to the new world of HA users who are not as interested in the technical integration as we are here.  Buy a hub, buy some dual band devices, hook it up, use your smartphne and go have fun. I think insteon can sit back and pick and choose and let the new world of HA standards battle it out.... They have homekit, they're doing alljoyn, and they have a  single set of products you can look at and buy at Bestbuy, Menards, etc.

 

In the same way, I think UDI's approach to provide a clear integration layer via nodes will serve them well. Don't try to meet all of the standards head on... but provide a way for any standard to be enveloped into the ISY.

 

It will be interesting to see how the community here steps up. We can create or participate in kickstarters and find ways to encourage and reward some of the amazing raw talent in our membership. A lot of the success in the coming year is in our own hands.

[Teken]

As you and I have stated in the past 2015 and moving forward will be a very interesting time for HA.

 

Insteon bar none has some of the best looking and feeling devices when compared to others like UPB, Z-Wave, X-10.

 

I always chuckle when I read about first generation Z-Wave devices with no real time status update? ️

 

With the latest Z-Wave Plus chips some great products should be hitting the market in the not too distant future.

 

It would really be great to see some of the Vera / HS Devs take on the virtual node aspect.

 

It's fair to say those two camps have come up with a lot of great software to help bridge many 3rd party gear.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[larryllix]

...

 

I always chuckle when I read about first generation Z-Wave devices with no real time status update? ️

 

...

I always chuckle when I see the early Insteon stuff with basically the same stuff as X10 had too. I am glad I didn't jump in a few years ago before dual band as my system may need replacing already.

 

I look at it as more of an advantage that Insteon is a "one throat to choke" solution. Its an end to end suite of products to pick up and use, and not necessarily get into the integration details. We tend to like the integration here, but the greater, growing new market will just expect it to work.

 

I watched Homeseer 1 and 2 from the x10 days, through insteon and then zwave. Insteon into HS went well. A standard and a set of products. zwave gave HS Tech some heartburn, as its a single standard with many companies interpreting it, not one company like insteon. The are a lot of advantages to Zwave, and I'm not knocking it, but less energy goes into integrating new insteon products than new zwave products because of how the different manufacturers treat the zwave standard. 

 

I believe Insteon now commands a dominant retail presence for this reason. You buy a set of components that work together, because they were designed that way. I think this model will appeal to the new world of HA users who are not as interested in the technical integration as we are here.  Buy a hub, buy some dual band devices, hook it up, use your smartphne and go have fun. I think insteon can sit back and pick and choose and let the new world of HA standards battle it out.... They have homekit, they're doing alljoyn, and they have a  single set of products you can look at and buy at Bestbuy, Menards, etc.

 

In the same way, I think UDI's approach to provide a clear integration layer via nodes will serve them well. Don't try to meet all of the standards head on... but provide a way for any standard to be enveloped into the ISY.

 

It will be interesting to see how the community here steps up. We can create or participate in kickstarters and find ways to encourage and reward some of the amazing raw talent in our membership. A lot of the success in the coming year is in our own hands.

 

This is Apple approach that held them back since the 1980s. I like the unified approach as do many other Insteon addicts but the crowd to convince doesn't like the sole manufacturer attitude. Or so the Dark Side would have us believe.

[Mikes]

Interesting that no one has mentioned how difficult it is to learn\code for the ISY or use the horrible ISY Java apps to 'code' for the ISY. I might speculate this to be part of the reason that it's hard to get folks working mor ewith this stuff. I've been coding and gadgeting for 35 or so years and have made a living as a programmer for the past 25. I've experience with machine language, assembler, C, C++, Java and now mostly .NET and have interfaced to many systems over the years but must say that the Insteon\ ISY products are in a class of their own. 

 

I don't know much about the other HA stuff just Insteon and ISY, I have to much other stuff to keep up with, I got here from using X10 stuff on and off over the years. I currently question the future of Insteon\ISY in light of the pricing and antiquated development interface, tools and documentation. SOAP and XML is a thing of the past and very difficult to work with. I don't know what the competition uses but would speculate its now where near as old school as this stuff.

 

I've decided to start thinking more seriously about looking at the other HA systems and 'coding' environments\toolsets before putting any more time or money in Insteon and ISY.

[io_guy]

Interesting that no one has mentioned how difficult it is to learn\code for the ISY or use the horrible ISY Java apps to 'code' for the ISY. I might speculate this to be part of the reason that it's hard to get folks working mor ewith this stuff. I've been coding and gadgeting for 35 or so years and have made a living as a programmer for the past 25. I've experience with machine language, assembler, C, C++, Java and now mostly .NET and have interfaced to many systems over the years but must say that the Insteon\ ISY products are in a class of their own.

 

I don't know much about the other HA stuff just Insteon and ISY, I have to much other stuff to keep up with, I got here from using X10 stuff on and off over the years. I currently question the future of Insteon\ISY in light of the pricing and antiquated development interface, tools and documentation. SOAP and XML is a thing of the past and very difficult to work with. I don't know what the competition uses but would speculate its now where near as old school as this stuff.

 

I've decided to start thinking more seriously about looking at the other HA systems and 'coding' environments\toolsets before putting any more time or money in Insteon and ISY.

That's just completely rude.

I hate Java more than the next guy. But is allows cross-platform web development for the ISY in a manor that is not easily done otherwise. For UDI to upgrade to HMTL5 for the admin console to simply make it look prettier is ridiculous.

To say you programmed in every language under the sun for 25 years and not understand the reasons UDI structured its coding the way they did makes no sense. What do you want - open coding in the unit that only true programmers could use, or the ability to write ISY code that will crash the unit in endless resource loops?

 

I think I have to start only visiting the forum when I get a PM because the poor GUI, I hate Java, and HomeKit talk is killing me.

[larryllix]

Interesting that no one has mentioned how difficult it is to learn\code for the ISY or use the horrible ISY Java apps to 'code' for the ISY. I might speculate this to be part of the reason that it's hard to get folks working mor ewith this stuff. I've been coding and gadgeting for 35 or so years and have made a living as a programmer for the past 25. I've experience with machine language, assembler, C, C++, Java and now mostly .NET and have interfaced to many systems over the years but must say that the Insteon\ ISY products are in a class of their own.

 

I don't know much about the other HA stuff just Insteon and ISY, I have to much other stuff to keep up with, I got here from using X10 stuff on and off over the years. I currently question the future of Insteon\ISY in light of the pricing and antiquated development interface, tools and documentation. SOAP and XML is a thing of the past and very difficult to work with. I don't know what the competition uses but would speculate its now where near as old school as this stuff.

 

I've decided to start thinking more seriously about looking at the other HA systems and 'coding' environments\toolsets before putting any more time or money in Insteon and ISY.

If you have been programming for that long ISY should be nothing for you to learn with it's simplified menu driven code. Maybe some hand holding for you is in order? I needed some as most of us did.

 

I don't like the java either but when you find another system that is so much easier with more than half the power let us know! Many of us have tried a few others. Some of us have attempted to write our own and wasted a few years of our lives.

 

Do you yell at the sports players for making stupid moves from your armchair too?

 

Let us know what you come up with and maybe we can get a group buy. Let us know if they value your input when you find a bug.

 

Better yet, let us know how your code writing is working and how big the PCB is.