Query doesn't work unless manually invoked

[Josshe]

I'm having a rough time in getting  my Z-wave switches to function in a program without being manually queried or operated manually at the ISY console..

I wanted a series of events to trigger if I turned on the light at the wall switch device.

 

If

         'Status 'My Office / My Office Ceiling Fan' is On

 

Then

          Set 'My Office / My Office Lamp Light'  80%

          Set 'My Office / My Office Desk Lamp' On

          Set 'My Office / My Office Lava Lamp' 50%

 

Else

 

When I physically turn on the Ceiling Fan switch none of the Then path executes.

So Click in ISY to turn the Ceiling Fan On or if I press the Ceiling Fan Query in ISY the statements execute.

         

How do I get this to work just from me physically turning on the Ceiling Fan at the device switch?

 

UI  Insteon_UD994 v.4.3.1

Product ISY994i/IR PRO (1110)

Open ADR (21010)

Z-Wave (21100)

 

It seem that the ISY is more dedicated to Insteon that anything else...

Does Scenes work for Z-wave???

[Teken]

Sounds to be either a coupling / bridging issue or a load issue or a combination of the two. Keep in mind some Z-Wave devices do not have instant status as part of their firmware.

[Josshe]

Teken,

 

Thank you for the fast response.

However, it makes no sense to me that pressing the Query button in ISY gets the status but the status request in the program line IF statement does not.

Obviously the device responds to manually invoked Query.

This worked perfectly in Homeseer HS3 so I know the devices respond as they should.

I really like the ISY and I don't know the history of the device but there is great support for Insteon but only a small section for Z-wave.

 

I'm not a totally new to home automation as I 've had X10 for well over a decade and Z-wave this time around for almost a year.

I have a professional working knowledge of electronics and electricity.

 

I went through a lot of controllers and software but finally settled on Homeseer several years ago and became a bit disheartened when the new HS3 only cost more, prettier but not as stable or reliable as HS2. I even purchased the Home Troller Zee which is a waste of time and resources, not to mention I was looking for and excuse to buy the ISY and got wife approval(yea).

 

I just really love the ISY and the great potential not to mention the responsive support but did not get it initially as I didn't see at the time where is supported Z-wave and I thought is was a bit pricey.

I've obviously since then jumped in and looking forward to full immersion in the ISY platform.

 

But back on subject...

What is the signal difference in manually pressing the Query button in ISY and invoking the Query in an Status request in programming?

 

How does one get to be a Beta tester?

I'd love to sign up for that...

[Teken]

Teken,

 

Thank you for the fast response.

However, it makes no sense to me that pressing the Query button in ISY gets the status but the status request in the program line IF statement does not.

Obviously the device responds to manually invoked Query.

This worked perfectly in Homeseer HS3 so I know the devices respond as they should.

I really like the ISY and I don't know the history of the device but there is great support for Insteon but only a small section for Z-wave.

 

I'm not a totally new to home automation as I 've had X10 for well over a decade and Z-wave this time around for almost a year.

I have a professional working knowledge of electronics and electricity.

 

I went through a lot of controllers and software but finally settled on Homeseer several years ago and became a bit disheartened when the new HS3 only cost more, prettier but not as stable or reliable as HS2. I even purchased the Home Troller Zee which is a waste of time and resources, not to mention I was looking for and excuse to buy the ISY and got wife approval(yea).

 

I just really love the ISY and the great potential not to mention the responsive support but did not get it initially as I didn't see at the time where is supported Z-wave and I thought is was a bit pricey.

I've obviously since then jumped in and looking forward to full immersion in the ISY platform.

 

But back on subject...

What is the signal difference in manually pressing the Query button in ISY and invoking the Query in an Status request in programming?

 

How does one get to be a Beta tester?

I'd love to sign up for that...

 

I believe there is a little bit of misunderstanding here. When you select query this forces the system to reach out to the device and provide its true state. Whether that be on / off, when you selected status you assumed the device would be in a known state such as on/off.

 

If the device was on then the program would execute. If it was not in the on state the program would be false and hence why it did not execute as you expected.

 

You can certainly add your existing program to first query the device so you know the true state before it initiate the program though.

[Josshe]

I'm not trying to be difficult but please help me to understand...

If the 'Status' statement is invoked in the program, would it not have to reach out to the device to know its current state as an operand for the program to execute?

It sound like you're saying the Query button reaches out to the device for status, but the programmed Status line makes and assumption and does not actually query the device.

 

Remember the Status statement is under the 'IF' which would mandate testing for true or false.

[Teken]

I'm not trying to be difficult but please help me to understand...

If the 'Status' statement is invoked in the program, would it not have to reach out to the device to know its current state as an operand for the program to execute?

It sound like you're saying the Query button reaches out to the device for status, but the programmed Status line makes and assumption and does not actually query the device.

 

Yes, you're correct.

 

The query actively reaches out to the end device(s) and asks what state its in. Whether that be on or off, whereas the Status operator simply means IF XXX device is On / Off, then do XXX.

 

Keep in mind the *Status* is not an assumption its simply a command you have programmed to be either true / false.

 

If the fan was not on, then its in a false state. If the fan was off then that state would be true. Change your program to Control and it will operate fine.

[Josshe]

Teken,

 

I really appreciate your patience and assistance.

You're one of the reasons I like ISY and this forum.

 

However I did change the line

 

IF

   Control 'My Office / My Office Ceiling Fan' is switched On

 

Then

    Do xxxx.....

 

It still does not execute the 'Then' path.

 

Side bar.

Steve from UDI logged into my pc and fixed some issues I had initially that crashed the unit.

When he was done, he placed a shortcut icon on my desktop the open the Admin console.

I just cleared the JAVA cache and must've left applications checked and it removed my Admin shortcut from my desktop.

What is the procedure to put the Admin console icon back on my desktop?

 

I'm really trying to embrace the ISY and what you're saying, but I still cannot get the simple program to run properly.

[Teken]

This thread will explain in simple terms (better than I ever could) about the use of Status / Control: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/13874-if-then-else-logic-how-literal-is-the-else/?hl=%2Bstatus+%2Bcontrol&do=findComment&comment=114983

[Teken]

Teken,

 

I really appreciate your patience and assistance.

You're one of the reasons I like ISY and this forum.

 

However I did change the line

 

IF

   Control 'My Office / My Office Ceiling Fan' is switched On

 

Then

    Do xxxx.....

 

It still does not execute the 'Then' path.

 

Side bar.

Steve from UDI logged into my pc and fixed some issues I had initially that crashed the unit.

When he was done, he placed a shortcut icon on my desktop the open the Admin console.

I just cleared the JAVA cache and must've left applications checked and it removed my Admin shortcut from my desktop.

What is the procedure to put the Admin console icon back on my desktop?

 

I'm really trying to embrace the ISY and what you're saying, but I still cannot get the simple program to run properly.

 

What firmware are you using?  If you're using 4.3.1 in this related thread you may select options a,b,c,d noting the limitations indicated about the Chrome browser.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15978-release-431-rc1-is-now-available/

 

Just so we're both on the same page is this fan switch a Z-Wave device or Insteon fan linc? As I do not have any Z-Wave devices so can't really comment on how they operate.

 

Having said this the basics should be the same so with that said. Is the switch really controlling the fan or a light switch?

 

Also what firmware are you using because I understand that previous firmware did not allow a person to control insteon devices and include Z-Wave devices together. I recall this has changed in the latest 4.3.1 firmware build but I could be mistaken?

[LeeG]

There are Insteon devices that DO NOT report back to the ISY manual On/Off state changes.

 

There are ZWave devices that DO NOT report back to the ISY manual On/Off state changes.

 

The If Status Program will work if you have a device that reports back manual state changes.  Does the Fan device report back manual state changes?

[andyf0]

Also note that "if CONTROL" does nothing with a Z-Wave device. Lee is right, some Z-Wave devices do not report status when operated locally.

[Josshe]

I had this setup in Homeseer HS3.

HS3 has a section where Polling(Query I assume in ISY) can be set for each device.

I had it set to poll the device every 15 seconds.

This would allow me to turn on the fan in my office with the paddle and with 15 seconds the lights would come on.

This even works on the crazy Home troller Zee.

 

Is there a way to get ISY to query/poll the device to verify the state of the device so that this works?

 

Is the ISY the device to fully support Z-wave as it seems to be more so for Insteon?

 

I don't want to abandon the ISY but if it will not fully address z-wave at this time, I'd like to know sooner than later.

My family depends on me to know what I'm doing with home safety and comfort and I really need to know if i'm barking up the wrong tree at this time.

 

How do I find out what statements don't work with Z-wave which is my only interest as I've invested in over 40 z-wave devices and really don't want to lose that investment value to go to Insteon? 

 

even better still, can you offer a program example that would make this work on the ISY>

[MWareman]

I believe that zwave devices notifying on local control is an action patented by Leviton. Some vendors pay a licensing fee to use the idea, others simply avoid the license cost and exclude the feature.

[Josshe]

So does this mean that I cannot in ISY physically press the paddle on a device and have ISY query the device in a program that would report the current state of the device?

[Teken]

As Michael indicated some Z-Wave devices do not report instant *Status* like Insteon does. But rather like what you found you need to query the device for its true last state.

 

Regardless I think it simply comes down to creating a program that allows you to query the device first than make that next step. I do not have any Z-Wave devices so can't provide accurate information as to what exactly needs to be done.

 

I would encourage you to reach out to UDI again and let them assist you directly so what you need is done right. My assumption would be that you would create a program to first query the fan. Next once that state was known and accurate the next line of code would initiate the THEN clause. 

 

EDIT: What I was thinking is there would be at least two programs. One program that mimics what you did on HS that polls that fan XX duration based on your needs. This would replicate the knowing the true status once known. Then you could call this first program by the second program. 

[Josshe]

Teken,

 

Please give an example of the two programs you think may apply.

I can only think of one program but please expand my thinking by example... please

[apostolakisl]

Also note that "if CONTROL" does nothing with a Z-Wave device. Lee is right, some Z-Wave devices do not report status when operated locally.

 

 

If "if control" does not transmit a message to ISY from z-wave, then how in the world could a zwave device work with ISY at all?  Is it merely a responder?  

 

Not having any z-wave devices myself, I may not be someone to give advice here.  But the problems you report here are somewhat similar to Insteon devices whose link records are corrupt.  You might consider factory resetting the z-wave device and completely removing it from ISY.  Then rebuilding it from scratch.

[stusviews]

All Z-Wave wall switches are responders, but not all are controllers. Z-Wave switches that are controllers are usually called scene-controllers. If your wall switch is not a scene-controller, then it won't send a signal to the ISY.

Z-Wave 3-way switches are also scene-controllers.

[Josshe]

apostolakisl,

 

Thank you for your reply.

My question is the same as you asked in the first line of your reply.

I talked to UDI and got input from other members.

It makes no sense at all to me to have commands like Control that does nothing in the Z-wave network and Status that does not initiate a Query of the device.

Yet I press the Query button in ISY and voila, the ISY displays the correct device state but not when Status is used in a program line.

I've been told by UDI and others that Z-wave devices don't all issue instant command status and I'm okay with that.

What leaves me in the dust is that if I manually query a device and get the status then why can't the program Status report the correct state of a device and execute program flow.

 

It is with much sadness that I fear I will have to return the ISY and go back to Homeseer HS3 because I don't feel that I've make a good $300.00 investment to have a timer or console control of my z-wave devices no valuable programming abilities.

 

I played with the Insteon kit from Walmart and was not impressed or saw that much benefit over the z-wave devices even though I know there are some but from reading issues in the other forums, I feel I'd be trading for another set of issues.

 

Besides if I replaced all 40+ z-wave devices, I'd have to purchase the PLM etc...

 

It just doesn't make sense and I'm really trying to embrace and bend to use the ISY and wait for 5.0 but I can't justify an expensive timer at this point...

Seems most people think I just don't understand.

I understand Boolean equations and functions as that was part of my college requirements to graduate with a degree in electronics and computer science etc...

 

I will cease and desist because I don't want to chance sounding negative as I really love the ISY.

All of my z-wave on/off switches are have scene controllers capabilities and this works flawlessly in HS3 but I want ISY..

[LeeG]

The Status returned by the query must be different than what the ISY currently has for the Program to trigger.

 

Note that the initial If Status example has a Quote in front of the word Status.  Suggests the posted example is not a copy/paste. 

[Josshe]

Correct observation.

I did not know how to copy and paste ISY program codes as it would not highlight for copy/cut and paste.

 I exported to the clipboard but when pasted, it pasted the html tags as in the browser.

[apostolakisl]

S

 

It makes no sense at all to me to have commands like Control that does nothing in the Z-wave network and Status that does not initiate a Query of the device.

Yet I press the Query button in ISY and voila, the ISY displays the correct device state but not when Status is used in a program line.

 

So, I can't really comment on why your switches behave as scene controllers with hs3 and not ISY.  I'm sure there is a reason.

 

Regarding status and control and query, I can explain. 

1) Status is held in the memory of ISY.  When a program checks the status of a device, it is checking the status that ISY believes it to be in based on the last communication ISY received that provided that status.

2) ISY does not issue a query to satisfy a "Status" line in a program.

3) ISY can be wrong if you have com issues.  It can be wrong, I suppose, if z-wave products don't report status.

4) Status is a trigger for a program if it CHANGES.  So if ISY's last record of a device status is that it was on, and then a query or another action that includes the device generates a "status on" report to ISY, then there is no CHANGE to the status and thus the program is not triggered.

5) If a program is triggered for some other reason besides the status line, then the status condition in the program is checked against ISY memory and a true or false result follows.

 

Your program had only one condition "if status . .. . "  this means that the program will only trigger when a ISY detects a CHANGE in the the status of the switch. 

You stated that a query triggered the program, therefore ISY must have listed the device as "off" in its memory prior to the query.  Therefore, ISY must have received an status off update from the device at some point.  Either that or your query would only work one time.  You might try turning the device on/off several times and just watch how it is listed in ISY's main page.

[LeeG]

How many of your ZWave devices show Status changes from manual operation in the ISY and how many do not (like the fan)?

[Josshe]

apostolakisl,

 

That's what I suspected.

Thank you thank you for making it so crystal clear.

 

LeeG,

 

The only z-wave devices that cause an immediate detection in ISY is the multi-sensor and a water sensor.

 

YOU all are absolutely wonderful in your speedy replies and UDI support is second to none.

 

I'm really down that i'll have to return the ISY tomorrow... serioiusly.

 

I do thank you all so very much!

[LeeG]

The fact that none of the ZWave wall switches provide manual operation status updates would seem to indicate a general ZWave comm issue or they really don't provide updates without some repetitive Query..